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Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

security.apple.com

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Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#381

Post by brookst »

gpm wrote: post #333
brookst wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I misunderstood your point -- I took it to mean someone impersonating a server, but you're saying it's Apple. So the part you're attacking (as Apple) is: > The process involves multiple Apple teams that cross-check data from independent sources, and the process is further monitored by a third-party observer not affiliated with Apple. At the end, a certificate is issued for keys rooted in the Secure Enclave UI…

Well, the broader context of the proposal is as an alternative to the original comment in this HN thread > Well, a 89-day "update-and-revert" schedule will take care of those pesky auditors asking too many questions about NSA's backdoor or CCP's backdoor and all that. As a backdoor I am taking it to mean they can compel assistance from inside of Apple, it's not a hack where they have to break in and hide it from ever…

> so yes a subset of nodes and also circumventing user diffusion (which sounds like traffic analysis right up the NSAs alley, or a court order to whatever third party Apple has providing the service).

How does traffic analysis help? The client picks the server to send the query to, and encrypts with that particular server's private key. I guess maybe your have the load balancer identify the target and only provide compromised servers to it? But then every single load balancer has to have the list of targeted individuals and compromised servers, which seems problematic for secrecy at scale.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#382

Post by ls612 »

ein0p wrote: post #180
ls612 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the setup is that Apple doesn't know which cleartexts currently being processed are associated with which user meaning that even live surveillance can't work without surveilling everybody, making any such program very quickly discoverable. Read the section about non-targetability in the link. Apple deserves credit for correctly analyzing their threat model and designing their system accordingly.

I’m willing to concede that Apple’s system is the best designed of the bunch. I’m not willing to call it “private”, however, if it processes unencrypted inputs in the jurisdiction of a nation state with pervasive government surveillance.

I agree from a technical perspective actually. What this system does to counteract that is use a social strategy. The government couldn't break "this specific system" without a lot of people knowing, and that makes it very likely that they would be discovered. And not in a vague way but in a very specific one.

Would this work in some authoritarian countries? No and Apple doesn't care. Would it work in a western one? Maybe.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#383

Post by gpm »

brookst wrote: post #381
gpm wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the broader context of the proposal is as an alternative to the original comment in this HN thread > Well, a 89-day "update-and-revert" schedule will take care of those pesky auditors asking too many questions about NSA's backdoor or CCP's backdoor and all that. As a backdoor I am taking it to mean they can compel assistance from inside of Apple, it's not a hack where they have to break in and hide it from ever…

> so yes a subset of nodes and also circumventing user diffusion (which sounds like traffic analysis right up the NSAs alley, or a court order to whatever third party Apple has providing the service). How does traffic analysis help? The client picks the server to send the query to, and encrypts with that particular server's private key. I guess maybe your have the load balancer identify the target and only provide co…

The load balancer is blind to which client sent a request via ohttp. You need to do something to bypass that (traffic analysis or ordering the ohttp provider to help).

> But then every single load balancer has to have the list of targeted individuals and compromised servers, which seems problematic for secrecy at scale.

It really doesn't. This seems well within the realms of what you could achieve with a court order without it becoming public.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#384

Post by leboshki »

v4dok wrote: post #245

This is Confidential Computing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidential_computing with another name. Intel, AMD and Nvidia have been working for years on this. OpenAI released a blog some time ago where they mentioned this as the "next step". Exciting that Apple went ahead and deployed first, it will motivate the rest as well.

This new DataProtector tool streamlines confidential computing software development. Imagine being able to rent access to your data so you own it but code running in a TEE can access it, securely transferring ownership of data, or offering subscription bundles for your data. With generative AI essentially turning into an echo chamber where it will train on its own content, sourcing human-derived data and content is going to be so important. This might be how an economy of that data/content gets off the ground. https://medium.com/iex-ec/introducing-the-content-creator-de...

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#385

Post by Sporktacular »

Sporktacular wrote: post #349
brookst wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The servers provide a hash of their environment to clients, who can compare it to the published list of audited environments. So the question is: could the hash be falsified? That’s why they’re publishing the source code to firmware and bootloader, so researchers can audit the secure boot foundations. I am sure there is some way that a completely malevolent Apple could design a weakness into this system so they could…

Sure I'm missing something, but isn't that just an untrusted server self-reporting its own hash? Apple publishes the bootloader source and we'd have to assume it's what's actually running and reporting honestly the hash of the OS it's hosting. So we need to go earlier in the chain. In the end, from afar, we don't know if we're communicating with an actual Secure Enclave/SGX whatever or something that just acts like o…

* wouldn't need all the...

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#386

Post by firecall »

jxi wrote: post #124
firecall wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Threads also is popular. Probably the mainstream Twitter alternative at this point?

Threads is far from mainstream and just filled with spam and OnlyFans spammers at this point.

There is a lot of that.

But there is far more.

Kara Swisher is on Threads, for instance.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#388

Post by DEADMINCE »

transpute wrote: post #18
advael wrote: post #16

I really want to see this OS, and have cautious optimism that this could be the first time we'll see a big tech company actually provide an auditable security guarantee! I think depending on how this plays out, Apple might manage to earn some of the trust its users have in it, which would be pretty cool! But even cooler will be if we get full chain-of-custody audits, which I think will have to entail opening up some…

> even if we can't verify that their sanctioned use case is secure, the cloud OS could be a great step forward in secure inference and secure clouds, which people could independently host or build an independent derivative of Yes, the tech industry loves to copy Apple :) Asahi Linux has a good overview of on-device boot chain security, https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Secur... > My main concern…

> Yes, the tech industry loves to copy Apple :)

Eh, it goes both ways. Even Apple devices got widgets eventually :)

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#389

Post by [deleted] »

musictubes wrote: post #365
cdata wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not even getting to the fact that Apple is also running a display ads business: https://searchads.apple.com/

Such a lazy take. Yes, they show ads based on what you search for in the App Store. They will also show apps based on location if the customer opts in to that feature. No other data is used. No browsing history, no purchase history, nothing like what other companies are collecting. https://searchads.apple.com/privacy

[deleted]

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#390

Post by mbs159 »

musictubes wrote: post #365
cdata wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not even getting to the fact that Apple is also running a display ads business: https://searchads.apple.com/

Such a lazy take. Yes, they show ads based on what you search for in the App Store. They will also show apps based on location if the customer opts in to that feature. No other data is used. No browsing history, no purchase history, nothing like what other companies are collecting. https://searchads.apple.com/privacy

Glancing at your comment history I can't help but notice that most of your comments are related to defending Apple, even at points where the consensus on HN is that Apple is obviously in the wrong. I applaud you, sir.
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