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What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

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Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#381

Post by atoav »

hliyan wrote: post #348
masklinn wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen. "Quality inertia" is one thing which allows for giant amounts of damage to be done long before the wheels visibly come off, as deviance gets normalised (and even mandated in cases such as Boeing) and the company eats its reserve of quality and goodwill, it starts going off-track in small ways before it falls off a cliff. It took closer to 20 years than 25 for the wheels to c…

I call this "quality momentum". A leader can come in, look at whatever "engine" that drives quality, decide it's not essential, remove it entirely, and coast on the momentum of previous quality practices for years before entropy sets in. But by this time, the board and shareholders have already rewarded the leader for "eliminating waste".

You can really get more efficient by cutting fat — until the next winter comes when it is needed. In a simpler society, leaders that proposed something like that once they were at least thrown out of the village. Today they get a golden parachute and are sent off to the next host to bleed dry.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#382

Post by atmosx »

margalabargala wrote: post #3

If you read this article looking for new or surprising insight, you won't find it. It is not new information that Boeing started a rapid decline shortly after the McDonnell Douglas merger, and it will be unsurprising to you to hear that shortly afterwards, Boeing began abusing its most senior employees into leaving. What this article offers is new detail into exactly how Boeing has gone about cannibalizing itself. Th…

IMO the FAA’s approach and handling was the most shocking aspect. Not sure what purpose the FAA serves anymore.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#383

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

mooreds wrote: post #230
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #70

The "funny" thing to me is that I'm old enough to remember when the merger occurred that people were predicting exactly what came to pass. It just took 25 years to finally happen.

Do you remember any specific newspaper or trade mag articles? Or was the conversation more in private/back channel?

From 25 years ago? No.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#384

Post by twojobsoneboss »

rybosworld wrote: post #209

U.S. companies have a management problem. I specifically mean that the terminal career path for most professions is "management". Depending where you work, management can mean: - giving orders - delegating work (usually this is work the manager specifically doesn't want to do themselves) - clearing blockers in front of your employees That the third one is the rarest is a problem. American corporate culture has devolv…

Have you been in upper management? It is stressful and if things don’t go well it’s quite likely that you’ll get canned, vs an IC

Grass is always greener

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#385

Post by tacocataco »

masklinn wrote: post #141
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #70

The "funny" thing to me is that I'm old enough to remember when the merger occurred that people were predicting exactly what came to pass. It just took 25 years to finally happen.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen. "Quality inertia" is one thing which allows for giant amounts of damage to be done long before the wheels visibly come off, as deviance gets normalised (and even mandated in cases such as Boeing) and the company eats its reserve of quality and goodwill, it starts going off-track in small ways before it falls off a cliff. It took closer to 20 years than 25 for the wheels to c…

Analog enshitification

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#386

Post by raiyu »

masklinn wrote: post #141
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #70

The "funny" thing to me is that I'm old enough to remember when the merger occurred that people were predicting exactly what came to pass. It just took 25 years to finally happen.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen. "Quality inertia" is one thing which allows for giant amounts of damage to be done long before the wheels visibly come off, as deviance gets normalised (and even mandated in cases such as Boeing) and the company eats its reserve of quality and goodwill, it starts going off-track in small ways before it falls off a cliff. It took closer to 20 years than 25 for the wheels to c…

That description you have of quality inertia certainly seems applicable to other areas of life as well.

I’m certainly seeing a few troubling issues brewing but don’t see as many people as myself taking them as serious warning signs.

But when the collapse happens it’s rapid because the entire foundation has rotted away.

It keeps happening because that’s what the system rewards, short sightedness, and is also why founder led companies have more success, because they are able to execute in years not quarters.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#387

Post by toomuchtodo »

WNFB wrote: post #371
jorvi wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, Chinese manufacturing with Western quality control strapped on top is probably the best bang for buck a consumer can get.

Like Volvo?

Chinese built Teslas are top notch fwiw.

https://electrek.co/2020/08/03/tesla-made-in-china-cars-lead...

https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-tesla-best-quality-giga-...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/big-difference-betwe...

https://old.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/14upjkq/my_tes...

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#388

Post by seb1204 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #174
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real fix is popularizing the notion that management is just as commoditizatable than those they seek to commoditize. Note that in the recent dialogue about AI eating jobs, there's zero mention of whether it could come for management positions. Nothing. Curious, isn't it? Why wouldn't an LLM be good enough at this? I mean, it's really data-driven, right?

The real fix is popularizing the notion that management is just as commoditizatable than those they seek to commoditize. What's described here is exactly what happens when you have "generic" management. Generic management finds unneeded expenses and eliminates them. The only way a senior expert isn't a cost to be eliminated is if you have managers focused on and understanding the enterprise they are managing (and no…

When the AI has QA/QC as part of the over all requirements should this not solve it? A question of ensuring all requirements are internalized.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#389

Post by papaver-somnamb »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #70

The "funny" thing to me is that I'm old enough to remember when the merger occurred that people were predicting exactly what came to pass. It just took 25 years to finally happen.

> It just took 25 years to finally happen.

This is the Systems Thinking concept of systems delay, the time lapse between cause and effect, of an action and its downstream effects. Someone applying this cognitive skill, when informed of material changes like that fact that Boeing usurped some of the FAA's oversight, merged with with MD with its colorful history, etc., is bound to come to think of the effects of such changes and when their effects may start manifesting downstream, especially externally. In the case of Boeing, that means the safety of their aircraft.

When it comes to orgs that make essential contributions to society such as in commercial passenger aviation, I strongly prefer thorough and effective oversight by a competent and impartial body of that org's inner workings and output. Boeing had earlier established a strong reputation for safety and engineering competence. I have no problem with profits; that is what motivates capitalists in the system we have today, but I do have a problem with risking the lives and welfare of the uninformed public. With recent events, we learned the situation changed to foxes guarding the hen house.

Trust but verify indeed. That Boeing was able to so rampantly cut quality in the pursuit of revenues under the cloak of their sterling reputation seems in part to be a condemnation of greater society.

That is what oversight is supposed to be for, the delegation of trust so that we need not overwhelm ourselves in general life.

Re: What Boeing did to all the guys who remember how to build a plane

#390

Post by UberFly »

Anecdotal story: A few years ago I worked with ex-Boeing employees from Altus AFB. They were disgusted by the quality control of the delivered C-17 Globemasters. Construction garbage in the wall panels, etc. Like the article, their complaints only succeeded in labeling them as "troublemakers" within the company.
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