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Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

theguardian.com

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Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#381

Post by supertimor »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #119
pierat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality.... If you steal $100 worth of food from a store, they'll call the cops and arrest you. If the store steals wages from you in the tune of $1000+, its a.... CIVIL MATTER (waves hands).

Nah. No one will get arrested for even stealing $1000s of dollars of luxury items on camera (at least in CA, a trend setter for other states). https://amhsnews.org/10386/justice-awareness/shoplifting-the... > On September 30th, 2023, Governor Newsom signed into law Senate Bill No. 553, essentially making it illegal for retail workers to confront looters, burglars, and shoplifters. > A Walgreens employee working in Sa…

God, this is such a tired take. I see it all the time, usually referencing how California is weak on crime, yada yada yada.

California, in fact, has one of the lowest felony theft thresholds out of any of the states. In fact, it has the 10th lowest felony threshold in the union. [1]

It was actually Oklahoma who started the trend to increase the felony threshold in the early 2000s.

Newsom passed the bill you referenced so that minimum wage workers aren’t playing security for their employers. This bill did not raise the felony threshold.

Do you want to know which states have the highest felony theft thresholds? It’s Texas and Wisconsin at $2500. In 2010, California went from a threshold of $400 to $950. In 2015, Texas went from a threshold of $1500 to $2500, so California’s threshold has always been much lower even in the recent past. [2]

So no, California has not actually been any sort of trendsetter when it comes to felony theft thresholds, but it certainly is a convenient bogeyman.

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/felony-thef...

[2] https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-bri...

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#382

Post by crazygringo »

remram wrote: post #370
crazygringo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it also works the other way -- If you withhold $20 from a bill payment, the worst that happens is collections. The company has to go through an extremely onerous and convoluted process that very likely won't go anywhere. If, in response, a company employee decides to settle the bill themselves by visiting your home and stealing $20 from your wallet, that's criminal theft. They will be arrested by the poli…

> the worst that happens is collections > (...) by visiting your home and stealing $20 from your wallet You are being dishonest here. Here's my version: If you withhold $20 from a bill payment, the worst that can happen is having to pay an extra fee, getting a utility shut off, and a permanent hit to your credit score. If you charge a customer an extra "service improvement fee" or "credit card surcharge" or a $400 "M…

> You are being dishonest here.

That's entirely uncalled for.

My point was clear and, yes, honest.

Obviously there are additional complications in both directions. Yes, if you don't pay your electric bill of course it will eventually get shut off. But if an employer stops paying their employees they eventually quit. If you're late in paying there may be a fine. Courts also fine employers punitive amounts for non-payment of wages.

The situations aren't identical but my point stands that debt and stealing are different concepts and can go in both directions.

And random line items added to a bill have nothing to do with this conversation.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#383

Post by willcipriano »

pierat wrote: post #235
willcipriano wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low income mothers can get formula from the government. https://www.fns.usda.gov/wic It was probably all theft to exchange for drugs. During the pandemic there was a formula shortage and allowing theft rather than punishing it probably ensured some children went without unnecessarily.

Any means testing (and I do mean ANY) will always exclude people who have an actual need who'll never be able to get. And really, if 1 out of a thousand "cuts drugs" with formula, so be it. At least that's non-toxic... and frankly, laughable as DARE propaganda.

Half of infants born in the US receive WIC. Can't be that hard.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#384

Post by fallingknife »

mjburgess wrote: post #186
ncallaway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. And it’s underhanded and illegal when employers do it, because there’s an imbalance of power between employee and employee. Unions exist to even out that balance of power. When employers engage in that kind of activity it further increases the imbalance of power. For example, in this case, they were using that tactic to support their ability to steal from employees.

To clarify this further: The employer is already a collective, "A business", and the hiring manager is operating with the full power of that collective in hiring/firing negotations. A union is a collective to balance power against the business (collective). A cartel is a collective of collectives (ie., a group of businesses) operating to defeat free market competition regulation, in this sense the cartel is balancing…

> unions challenge businesses (power to hire/fire).

Which is kind of the problem with unions. If they stuck to negotiating pay levels while leaving businesses free to hire and fire who they see fit I think employers would be much more willing to work with them. Higher salary expenses are much less damaging to a business than not being able to fire incompetent workers.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#385

Post by sixothree »

phpisthebest wrote: post #225
BobaFloutist wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then they get mad that the teenagers they made a point of hiring are irresponsible, unreliable, and have limited experience working. You know, teenagers.

I started working at 16, at a walmart. I only called sick a handful of times, never was late, and did my job to the best of my ability. it is called work ethic. I started at $0.25 above minimum wage, as we given several raises, and position changes by the time I left at age 18, why because I was one of the most reliable teens they had, and they did not want me to go to another employer. Some parents instill work ethi…

I don't see what you "having responsibility" has to do with taking advantage of children?

Also I have to ask, and I mean this seriously. What did you do with the money from that job? Did it go into savings? Did you help with household bills?

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#386

Post by samatman »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #329
samatman wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cartels are a feature of free markets. I would argue that it's good for the state to take some sort of interest in regulating them, one of several ways that I'm not a free-market fundamentalist. But arguing that the formation of cartels makes a market non-free is backward. Cartels emerge through free association in trade. Regulating them might make for a more functional market, a more efficient market (or it might no…

graeber/wengrow would disagree

Neither of those people are a good source on the common definition of free markets. "Free market" is just two words, they can mean whatever an author wants. But it's useful to have a common vocabulary, and respectful to stick with the definition used by whomever introduces a term.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#387

Post by ToucanLoucan »

Jensson wrote: post #275
MeImCounting wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me youve never worked in service industry without telling me youve never worked in the service industries. This isnt "being late with payments" that is as you have correctly pointed out, not theft. "late" implies that eventually the wages are in fact paid. This is not what people are talking about when they are talking about wage theft.

Tell me you have never rented out without telling me you have never rented out something. People refuse to pay rent all the time unless you start to threaten legal action over it. We call that late payment, but they would never pay unless you went after them, just like these companies. > This isnt "being late with payments" "Being late with payments" doesn't mean they are late, it means they haven't paid you yet. Tha…

> Tell me you have never rented out without telling me you have never rented out something.

Ah. You're a landlord. That explains a lot.

All the bemoaning and bitching I've ever heard from you lot has one answer: If it's so fucking bad, then sell your excess properties to people who actually want to live in them and leave the business. No one forced you to buy more housing/commercial space than you needed. You did that, because you wanted to profit from it while doing no work. In that lens, I hope it sucks for you. I hope you have problems every day from your tenants, from your buildings. I hope they hold you feet to the fire over every last problem they have with every ounce of legal leeway given them. I hope you're miserable.

And I hope all of this because nobody made you get into that business and you're free to leave it at any time.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#388

Post by wahnfrieden »

samatman wrote: post #386
wahnfrieden wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

graeber/wengrow would disagree

Neither of those people are a good source on the common definition of free markets. "Free market" is just two words, they can mean whatever an author wants. But it's useful to have a common vocabulary, and respectful to stick with the definition used by whomever introduces a term.

> I will add that I consider the very idea of "absence of the state" to be badly-formed, states vary considerably in their constitution but there's always something serving that role, even if it's a few elders in a village.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#389

Post by ToucanLoucan »

MeImCounting wrote: post #291
Jensson wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me you have never rented out without telling me you have never rented out something. People refuse to pay rent all the time unless you start to threaten legal action over it. We call that late payment, but they would never pay unless you went after them, just like these companies. > This isnt "being late with payments" "Being late with payments" doesn't mean they are late, it means they haven't paid you yet. Tha…

I have actually worked in property management. It was incredibly educational. I learned a lot about how "landlords" are really the single greediest, laziest class of individuals one is ever likely to encounter. Eternally lamenting over how they're so under-appreciated and taken advantage of. There are always exceptions to any rule, sure but for the most part "professional landlords" are parasites. Anyway you clearly…

> There are always exceptions to any rule

We had what we thought were the dream landlords. They kept our rent low because we kept their property in good condition and we were tenants for literally a decade. I mowed both sides of the property, too, so they wouldn't need to service it. I replaced outlets, I was on-time with rent every single month.

Then they wanted out of the business. We were harangued constantly by their real estate agent to arrange tours of the property, oftentimes without the requisite 24-hour notice by our states law. We had to allow strangers THROUGH OUR HOME routinely for a month. Then they sold the property, and the new owners increased rent by the maximum legal amount the next month, almost $400 at the time, fully intending to continue increasing it until it was at "market rate" which essentially doubled our rent over the course of the next few months.

Thankfully my parents were in a particularly great position having had a windfall from a family member passing away, and they helped us a great deal in completing our savings for a down payment several years ahead of schedule, and helping us pay off some ancillary debt to give our credit score a shot in the arm. We managed to buy a home thanks to them and I will live in a fucking cardboard box before I kiss some landlord's ring again.

Fuck em.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#390

Post by antisthenes »

sneak wrote: post #61
antisthenes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing pettiness from the owners for what is essentially $10 worth of labor (or less)

$10/week/employee adds up over decades.

It really doesn't.

Can't buy your way out moral bankruptcy with $10,400 over 2 decades.

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