Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The case for single-stair multifamily

thesisdriven.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 562 posts

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#381

Post by lukas099 »

gamepsys wrote: post #375
eru wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning is already pretty bad (at least in the US), and doesn't really have anything to do with safety. In the sense that even without zoning laws, there were already public nuisance laws that wouldn't have allowed you to open a coal fired power plant next to a Kindergarten.

Zoning laws have a lot to do with safety & public health. Industrial zoning is far away from residential because factories produce pollution. Edit: Some parts of zoning law has to do with safety/health. Some parts don't. Some parts are about more than one thing. When I was growing up there was a chemical fire in a factory in town. People were evacuated. Luckily, very few homes were evacuated because zoning laws kept…

Okay, what is the safety reason my barber can’t operate out of a room in his house?

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#382

Post by epistasis »

gamepsys wrote: post #375
eru wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning is already pretty bad (at least in the US), and doesn't really have anything to do with safety. In the sense that even without zoning laws, there were already public nuisance laws that wouldn't have allowed you to open a coal fired power plant next to a Kindergarten.

Zoning laws have a lot to do with safety & public health. Industrial zoning is far away from residential because factories produce pollution. Edit: Some parts of zoning law has to do with safety/health. Some parts don't. Some parts are about more than one thing. When I was growing up there was a chemical fire in a factory in town. People were evacuated. Luckily, very few homes were evacuated because zoning laws kept…

Pollution laws protect against industrial operations polluting other areas, not zoning.

The real "pollution" they zoning was invented to solve was the "pollution" of residents of apartments living close to wealthier people. Seriously! Check out how the original Supreme Court decision phrased its motivation:

> “very often the apartment house is a mere parasite, constructed to take advantage of the open spaces and attractive surroundings created by the residential character of the district …. interfering by their height and bulk with the free circulation of air and monopolizing the rays of the sun which otherwise would fall upon the smaller homes.”

Here's a more extensive analysis from an org purporting to represent real estate, the source of much historical support for this sort of exclusionary zoning:

https://cre.org/real-estate-issues/americas-sordid-history-o...

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#383

Post by hammock »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #362
hammock wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is double stair MFH overzealous? I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. But I don’t want.

A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc. The reason I think the two stairs don't do much is that first world countries exist outside North America, they don't have this rule, and th…

>A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc.

I suppose you also think it’s silly for flight crew to confirm people sitting in the exit row are able and willing to help in an emergency.

Couldn’t you just push them out of the way or jump over them?

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#384

Post by TaylorAlexander »

hammock wrote: post #351
adameasterling wrote: post #63

This is a fantastic article. Burdensome regulations on housing construction have caused costs to skyrocket. Minimum lot sizes, setback requirements, square footage minimums, floor-area ratio restrictions, overzealous height restrictions, parking requirements, abuse of environmental reviews, historic designations, community reviews, overzealous MFH requirements (like double-stair), below-market mandates, all have work…

How is double stair MFH overzealous? I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. But I don’t want.

> How is double stair MFH overzealous?

I suggest reading the article, which is intended to answer this question in depth. It provides concrete examples!

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#385

Post by hammock »

kdmccormick wrote: post #364
hammock wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is double stair MFH overzealous? I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. But I don’t want.

> I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. That is an extremely specific situation! > How is double stair MFH overzealous? There is a cost to every regulation. The cost to this one is that housing is more expensive for all Americans. Stress, poverty, and homelessness all lead to negative health ou…

>That is an extremely specific situation!

It’s an example. Can you generalize it or should I?

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#386

Post by kelseyfrog »

hammock wrote: post #385
kdmccormick wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. That is an extremely specific situation! > How is double stair MFH overzealous? There is a cost to every regulation. The cost to this one is that housing is more expensive for all Americans. Stress, poverty, and homelessness all lead to negative health ou…

>That is an extremely specific situation! It’s an example. Can you generalize it or should I?

Here's a hypothetical for a two-stairwell building: two couches.

We can avoid this dangerous scenario with a three-stairwell minimum requirement.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#387

Post by hammock »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #384
hammock wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is double stair MFH overzealous? I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. But I don’t want.

> How is double stair MFH overzealous? I suggest reading the article, which is intended to answer this question in depth. It provides concrete examples!

As a safety measure, it doesn’t, unless I missed something. In fact it says there has been barely any analysis

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#388

Post by hammock »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #386
hammock wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is an extremely specific situation! It’s an example. Can you generalize it or should I?

Here's a hypothetical for a two-stairwell building: two couches. We can avoid this dangerous scenario with a three-stairwell minimum requirement.

Good point. Why do we even bother with two-lane roads and a double yellow line? Such a waste of space. Very contrived to presume there is always a car coming the other way

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#389

Post by slyall »

jojobas wrote: post #380
ksplicer wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anyone starting a family happy with the situation. Most people I know are moving to suburbs only because they can't get 3 bedroom apartments in cities. If MFH's became broadly available I think many new families would flock there.

Everyone I spoke to who has lived with kids in both flats and houses on 600sqm blocks prefers the latter, commute (which commute?) be damned.

I'll guess this is people who can afford a big stand-alone house in a nice area

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#390

Post by richiebful1 »

lukas099 wrote: post #381
gamepsys wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning laws have a lot to do with safety & public health. Industrial zoning is far away from residential because factories produce pollution. Edit: Some parts of zoning law has to do with safety/health. Some parts don't. Some parts are about more than one thing. When I was growing up there was a chemical fire in a factory in town. People were evacuated. Luckily, very few homes were evacuated because zoning laws kept…

Okay, what is the safety reason my barber can’t operate out of a room in his house?

No reason. Countries like Japan have reasonable zoning, meaning industrial uses are separate, but commercial and residential is largely interspersed. Which is great!
Post reply on HN