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Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

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Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#381

Post by fernandotakai »

PaywallBuster wrote: post #140
bboygravity wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually would be illegal in most of the EU (at the very least in The Netherlands) AFAIK. This is some "only in the US" level stuff (in the context of "The West").

Netherlands you could have 3 month probation (I think??) or most companies may start employees on fixed-term employment contracts (6/8/12 months) before becoming permanent which is very common (Netherlands had a rule where you could have 3 fixed term contracts, up to 24 months total, before becoming a permanent employee) so they could've hired her on a 6 months contract and simply not renew it :)

yup. i was hired on a 1y contract, and because i did a good job, got a permanent one after 9 months (which is quite common where i work).

also, you can't be just fired for performance reasons right away -- you need to first do a documented improvement plan and you need to at least try to move the employee to a different part of the company.

if she was in the netherlands, she could easily sue CF for wrongful dismissal.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#382

Post by fernandotakai »

worldsoup wrote: post #29
bboygravity wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually would be illegal in most of the EU (at the very least in The Netherlands) AFAIK. This is some "only in the US" level stuff (in the context of "The West").

what specifically would be breaking EU/Dutch law here?

firing someone without trying to improve their performance. you need to first warn the employee, and try to improve their performance.

you can check reasoning for dismissal here https://business.gov.nl/running-your-business/staff/dismissi...

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#383

Post by NicoJuicy »

etchalon wrote: post #325
NicoJuicy wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false accusation. They gave a reason: performance and the girl mentioned to have 0 sales + 3 opportunities. I wouldn't bet a penny on that lawsuit to win.

They gave a reason. That doesn't mean the facts supported that reason. The employee didn't believe they did. Not closing a deal in your first month of sales is not exactly unheard of or even uncommon. Either way, WT lawsuits don't generally "win or lose". They settle.

The facts support the reason ( 0 sales), although there are nuances ( timeframe - 4,5 months)

There's also a lot of missing context.

- what happened in those 3 opportunities that she tried to close a deal

- perhaps she's missing a technical background to actually close a deal, since Cloudflare is a very technical product

No one from us knows the details, so it's speculation.

4,5 months is still a bit fast though. Getting a new employee up to speed takes 6 months in a lot of cases.

But mostly you know it sooner when it wouldn't work out.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#385

Post by NicoJuicy »

Teever wrote: post #203
NicoJuicy wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's online and the entire call can be recorded?

I don't get it, are you saying that they can only give this information in a face to face setting? How can they be certain that the person they're firing won't record that conversation?

They'll talk to legal for the follow up meeting and present the specific case to them.

To see what's allowed/possible, even if it gets recorded.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#386

Post by NicoJuicy »

aaomidi wrote: post #319
NicoJuicy wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false accusation. They gave a reason: performance and the girl mentioned to have 0 sales + 3 opportunities. I wouldn't bet a penny on that lawsuit to win.

Then she should’ve had that communicated to her earlier.

We don't know specifics.

If she's doing all the things she should do ( as she mentions), but lacks technical knowledge for a technical product.

Than if she asks feedback, she'll get points for the effort.

But concerning technical knowledge, there's not much to do in a short period to get an employee profitable in a lot of cases. Definitely with a product like Cloudflare.

And saying you lack basic knowledge, is very hard to do/fix. Because the knowledge is not solely Cloudflare related. It's development, website, networking, ... There's a difficult gray area on what training someone needs for technical things.

Even if the employee is motivated. They won't be profitable within a year.

Where to start? Where does it end?

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#387

Post by hn_go_brrrrr »

hartleybrody wrote: post #342
cameldrv wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this would be the optimal vulcan way to take this. In the human world, peoples stake a chunk of their identity with the company they work for, and when they get fired, that part of their identity is lost. The right, human way to deal with this as the employer is to say that you're sorry and to truly empathize with the people they're firing. Unfortunately, HR doesn't want to do this anymore, maybe for legal reaso…

>that you're sorry and to truly empathize with the people they're firing Serious question: what should have been said on this call to do that? There was a lot of "I'm sorry you feel that way" seeming to come from the HR representative, but it seemed to miss the mark.

They missed the mark because "I'm sorry you feel that way" is the pseudo-apology equivalent of giving someone the finger. It's attempting to shift the blame onto the recipient for feeling bad, rather than the speaker actually admitting fault.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#389

Post by Dah00n »

Aurornis wrote: post #31
danpalmer wrote: post #24

This is why we need unions. Layoffs are unfortunately, sometimes, necessary. But when they happen, it's important that the right people are chosen, for the right reasons (whether that's performance based, voluntary, protecting certain groups, ensuring fairness, etc). That requires collective bargaining by representatives who are able to assess and change the criteria, and who are able to negotiate for better outcomes…

The person in this TikTok admits to having closed zero sales. They're also one of the most junior people on the team (4.5 months). They would be among the first to go under union rules, too. Unions are often worse at prioritizing things like tenure over performance, if anything. But even under those rules she was one of the most junior people. There is basically no situation where a union would have prioritized this…

The text in the video says her other co-workers have already got fired, so this doesn't seem to have anything to do with her at all.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#390

Post by Dah00n »

aurareturn wrote: post #242
hpaavola wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really good that some are ready to do what is right instead of just bending over.

Well, if I have to hire one important account executive for my team, would I consider her? No. Not only did she post it on social media, but it revealed that she made no sales (her fault or not). But I guess this is Gen Z for you.

What an infantile way to express your dislike for younger people.
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