Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 1001 posts

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#381

Post by megaman821 »

kevingadd wrote: post #341
megaman821 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if that terrorist was launching rockets from that apartment? Would it be justified then? These things aren't black-and-white. I don't want to be the person who says how much collateral damage is okay.

Israel has a proven ability to do precision strikes on apartment buildings that would basically only target the terrorist - we've seen them do this - but they choose to level entire buildings instead. You can probably figure out why they choose that option.

Israel also has the proven ability to level all of Gaza, but they fact that they don't doesn't mean much. Outsider speculation on Israeli military objectives is meaningless.

Wars don't end when one side gets yelled at. They either end with diplomacy or victory.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#382

Post by knallfrosch »

cracrecry wrote: post #311
bluescrn wrote: post #73

Meanwhile, Egypt seems to get a free pass, minimal criticism for keeping its border locked down while being adjacent to a terrible conflict? They could at least let the most vulnerable/sick/injured flee.

Egypt and specially Jordan are not stupid. They saw what happened in Lebanon.

Altough you're right: Jordan has its own, earlier, history with Palestinian arabs.

The Palestinians moved to Jordan after losing the 1967 war, started a "civil" war in Jordan and were expelled to Lebanon after losing in 1971. Only then they started the 1975 "civil" war in Lebanon.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#383

Post by pgeorgi »

stoorafa wrote: post #197
pgeorgi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Egypt prefers dead Palestinians within Gaza over Palestinians living elsewhere and Israel, maybe, controlling the Gaza strip. Al-Sisi, as reported in https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/12/Ga... : > But the case of Gazans “is different”, he said, because their displacement would mean “the elimination of the (Palestinian) cause.”

[flagged]

> If Palestinians leave Gaza to Egypt, then Egypt will be complicit with Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

But at least it guarantees that there are Palestinians who can seek redress, e.g. at the ICJ. But I suppose when there's the "Palestinian cause", Palestinian lives cease to matter.

(let's ignore West Bank for a moment since Al-Sisi and you both did)

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#384

Post by mminer237 »

acdha wrote: post #124
cassepipe wrote: post #56

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

> However supportive of Israel one may be and how repulsed one should be by Hamas, I'd say that we should not fool ourselves in that the military operation in Gaza is Israel defending itself ("Israel's right to defend itself" is now a commonplace phrase) rather than avenging itself. I’ve felt that as well, and I would add that even if you feel every action is justified I am skeptical that it’s not counterproductive.…

I think an even bigger driver of terrorism than conflict is the fact that most people in Palestine have lived their entire lives in a state wholly governed by terrorists. From birth, children constantly hear how murdering Jewish civilians is one of life's holy accomplishments, how Jews are all racist liars, how Israel shouldn't exist, how Hamas is their rightful glorious leaders, etc. You shouldn't underestimate the impact of decades of racist, nationalist propaganda on young minds. In reality, war and terrorism are awful, and I wonder if the reality of it doesn't disillusion people of its glory.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/04/world/middleeast/to-shape...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#385

Post by rich_sasha »

edanm wrote: post #244
rich_sasha wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is good reason to hold Israel to a higher standard. It is by many metrics one of the most sophisticated states in the whole world. It has one of the highest fractions of people with higher education, it is a highly innovative economy. It is the second largest country of origin for NASDAQ stocks - US being the first one - despite being small by numbers at around 10m people. Whereas the Palestinian territ…

I completely agree that Israel should be held (and hold itself) to a higher standard than Hamas. I think one thing Israelis... dislike... is that often Israel is held to higher standards than every other country on Earth , is held to impossible standards. And when it falls short of those standards - it is considered proof that Israel is evil.

Is Israel being held to a highest standards though? I think the US wars are a great point of comparison. US got totally dragged through the gutter for, frankly, all of its Middle Eastern interventions: Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. Libya is maybe the odd one out - maybe.

To be clear, I'm staying clear of any assessment of moral ground of either side. I'm making a limited argument about expected standards.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#386

Post by seabird »

dang wrote: post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

I've been reading this site for 5+ years at this point and I hope that this experiment/exercise does not continue. This is an issue where those demanding commentary are generally not doing so in good faith, and acknowledging the reality of the situation is something that is best not done in polite company. There are plenty of places where you can discuss this content as much as you'd like, and nobody's life will be improved by this becoming yet another one of them.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#387

Post by knallfrosch »

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #320
Unfrozen0688 wrote: post #238

Al-Jazeera English operates under the ownership of the Al Jazeera Media Network, which, in turn, is funded by the government of Qatar. Up to you if you trust them or not. I do not. Swedish.

I've understood that this topic hasn't been allowed to be discussed here, and I think I've preferred that. But this is the first time I've seen a thread allowed, and a bit personally perplexed to see that it's an Al-Jazeera post. Zero trust. Australian.

I agree that it's weird to see the discussion open with this timing (late) and this topic (a weird side-note compared to the terrorist attack and bombin) and this source (state source from Qatar, which is Hamas-friendly.)

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#388

Post by natch »

stoorafa wrote: post #171
dubcanada wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel's response tends to stem from a history of oppression which is where it gets touchy. Jewish have not exactly been treated well for most of the 20th century. Not saying that is a reason to invoke that upon someone else, but it tends to be where most thoughts come from. A sense of if we don't do something we'll lose "our" home.

That’s an interesting parallel, Gazan’s response is also borne of a history of oppression. Living with food insecurity, being an intergenerational refugee unable to return to home a few miles away, watching family members harmed, etc seems to motivate a lot of Palestinian behavior.

Their ancestors lost their homes when they needlessly started, and then lost, a war against people who owned land outright and others who moved onto the land only after the UN divided it and gave a vast proportion of it to Jordan, and part to Israel… ancestors who also abandoned their land after the war defeat on the advice of their warlike leaders. The ones who stayed behind became Israeli (Arab muslims, Christians, etc.) and kept their land as long as they held valid documented title to it, and many of those who made that move (or whose parents did) say they would prefer to live under Israeli rule versus PA rule. The Youtuber TravelinIsrael has some good videos on history about this.

Obviously there are also modern alleged losses of land and homes but each case has its own details. In some, Israelis (often settlers) are clearly in the wrong, but in others, it is less clear and more disputed than common rhetoric about “oppression” and “occupation” would imply.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#389

Post by ImJamal »

kamikazeturtles wrote: post #289
edanm wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that Israel should be held (and hold itself) to a higher standard than Hamas. I think one thing Israelis... dislike... is that often Israel is held to higher standards than every other country on Earth , is held to impossible standards. And when it falls short of those standards - it is considered proof that Israel is evil.

I'm critical of Israel's handling of this conflict just as much as I'm critical of Turkey's response to Kurdish separatists. No one is held to impossible standards. Everyone deserves dignity

And yet no where near as many people are crying and protesting against Turkey. Maybe people are just critical, but they refuse to take the same actions. How many people support BDS against Israel? How many support it against Turkey?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#390

Post by xdennis »

Lendal wrote: post #20
jraby3 wrote: post #7

Just a reminder that Aljazeera is the state sponsored news of Qatar, a county that hosts Hamas leaders and is close allies with Iran. It’s not a valid news source.

Is there any news source in the world that isn't in some way connected to one of the parties of this war? It has to be a news source that has significant presence in the region so that they have some topical credibility, but also is not located in a country that does any business with either the Arab world or Israel. I'll wait.

Qatar is an authoritarian monarchy. Journalists based there can't just publish what they want.

The US is connected to the Middle East, but journalists there do have freedom.

Post reply on HN