Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 618 posts

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#381

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

pyrale wrote: post #291
steveBK123 wrote: post #204

One underlying problem with these PIP type programs at FAANG seems to be that they have very high barriers to entry in the interview process, and then act like 30% of the company is underperforming and subject to an annual 6% cull. There are industries & companies that have grown fat & lazy and could use a few annual 6% culls, but you eventually run out of fat. If you have a very competitive interview process and hig…

You're mistaken in that you believe that the goal of culls is to cut underperformers. Stack ranking doesn't assess performance, it checks whether you're willing to do a little more to be ahead of your peers. The real goal of culls is to motivate people to work more, to be more accessible to their managers' requests, etc. so they make it "to the next round". It's a pressure tool, not a performance control tool.

Meh. Going to a FAANG is like joining an Olympic sports team; it's not a place you'd want to be if you aren't hell bent on going for the gold. The irony is that the pressure cooker works; an unhealthy degree of ambition, competitiveness, and willingness to work their tails off are all assets in the business world. I know a, at least to me, surprising number of people who successfully navigated these environments who later became founders/CEOs and high level executives.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#382

Post by golergka »

steveBK123 wrote: post #204

One underlying problem with these PIP type programs at FAANG seems to be that they have very high barriers to entry in the interview process, and then act like 30% of the company is underperforming and subject to an annual 6% cull. There are industries & companies that have grown fat & lazy and could use a few annual 6% culls, but you eventually run out of fat. If you have a very competitive interview process and hig…

> If you have a very competitive interview process and high compensation to attract the best talent, it is unlikely you have so many underperformers lying about to cull annually.

Interview process doesn’t test for everyday laziness. A lot of very smart people who easily solve leetcode are just coasting at their jobs.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#383

Post by giantg2 »

JohnFen wrote: post #338
pyrale wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaken in that you believe that the goal of culls is to cut underperformers. Stack ranking doesn't assess performance, it checks whether you're willing to do a little more to be ahead of your peers. The real goal of culls is to motivate people to work more, to be more accessible to their managers' requests, etc. so they make it "to the next round". It's a pressure tool, not a performance control tool.

This sort of thing is one of the big reasons why I would never work for a FAANG company. I prefer to work at a place that encourages good work rather than a weird cutthroat arena combat thing.

I'd still work there. For those comps I'd do a lot of things. My current job is already torture and doesn't pay nearly as well. But I guess that really a fictional problem for me since I'd never pass the interview.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#384

Post by uptownfunk »

It’s a terrible place to work but not for the reasons people think.

Being green and fresh is priceless, you can take on any challenge because you don’t yet know the reality of it, and once you get in it, your only way is out, which can be really powerful if put to the right uses.

Amazon puts a good price on that to juice the best years of your life.

Please don’t squander your best years to go from L4 -> L5 or L6 -> L7

Play and win at a different game.

The prizes are way better.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#385

Post by giantg2 »

psunavy03 wrote: post #342
JackFr wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have posted this before, an argument in defense of stack ranking I had heard from a friend's father who was a long-time manager for a large industrial conglomerate from the 60's through the 80's. Simply put it was that they were far more willing to hire non-standard candidates on gut and hunches, knowing that if it didn't work out, it didn't work out they would be gone in 1-1.5 years and it would not be a ding agai…

Having been a Navy officer for 20 years active and reserve, one of the other overlooked flaws of the stack rank is that it's a vehicle for cultivating egos. When the only way up is through many levels of being "1 of X, Early Promote," it's fascinating to watch a bright-eyed humble flight student turn into a condescending jerk of an instructor over the years. Turning the performance review system into "winners" and "l…

I have a friend who is getting out (technically going reserve). It sounds like there are lot of factors impacting retention and most of them are being ignored. Why should the leaders focus on things they are a part of and admit fault if they can simply blame stuff on civilian cultural issues or subordinate "weakness"?

I heard some of the cyber warfare units are proposing to bring in people in as high as O5. No way that causes any related problems...

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#386

Post by diracs_stache »

psunavy03 wrote: post #342
JackFr wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have posted this before, an argument in defense of stack ranking I had heard from a friend's father who was a long-time manager for a large industrial conglomerate from the 60's through the 80's. Simply put it was that they were far more willing to hire non-standard candidates on gut and hunches, knowing that if it didn't work out, it didn't work out they would be gone in 1-1.5 years and it would not be a ding agai…

Having been a Navy officer for 20 years active and reserve, one of the other overlooked flaws of the stack rank is that it's a vehicle for cultivating egos. When the only way up is through many levels of being "1 of X, Early Promote," it's fascinating to watch a bright-eyed humble flight student turn into a condescending jerk of an instructor over the years. Turning the performance review system into "winners" and "l…

As a flight attrite who ended up running a division on something grey, the Navy knocked me down more pegs than I was thought possible. Appreciate the forced opportunities to grow, but there's got to to be some better ways. Sounds like you're doing some good Sir.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#387

Post by randerson »

morkalork wrote: post #90
intunderflow wrote: post #58

I've heard so many terrible stories about working at Amazon that I'm not sure I would ever work there, both in the media and from friends who were severely mistreated. It's a shame, because some of the tech they work on (like S3) is super interesting and high scale, but I do not want to acquire a mental health crisis from work.

I'm morbidly curious, like if I knew I had a solid job waiting for after and didn't have to stress over it going sideways. They'd probably smell my non-seriousness a mile away though and never hire me.

You'd come across as relaxed and confident, and probably stand a better chance of being hired as a result.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#388

Post by cmrdporcupine »

xivzgrev wrote: post #304

Why does anyone choose to work at Amazon? Given all the stories of PIP, it sounds like a not great place to work Go to other fang, or other tech. Lots of companies that pay just as well. Amazon would be my last choice - my job search is going awful, gotten rejected from most big tech companies, and I have well paying Amazon and a long tail of little shit companies that don’t pay that great (think of the equity!!)

When I was at Google, I talked to people who have worked at both.

The general gist of it was: while one got treated better at Google, you got more done -- and had more freedom to choose how to do it -- at Amazon. So depending on the team, potentially higher job satisfaction.

I don't know if that's still the case. Personally if I'm going to sell my soul and work on stuff which isn't my personal passion, it's going to go to the highest and best bidder... but I will admit after 10 years at Google, the slow pace and boredom got to me enough that I quit. Maybe I would not have done that if I'd felt more emotional attachment and productivity in my work, and maybe a place like Amazon could have provided that. But I've heard too many dark tales. (I sure miss that level of money.)

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#389

Post by segmondy »

francisofascii wrote: post #212
pixelmonkey wrote: post #156

Many years ago, when I worked in high finance, it was common knowledge that 3-5% of the staff would be fired every 1-2 years, all at once. This created a lot of tension every time rumours swirled that the "culling" was coming up. But, when you were fired, you were simply given a phone call, out of the blue one day, told to come to an office, and then offered a severance package based on your years of service, and esc…

If you are put on a PIP, at least you have some time to start looking for a new job. The takeaway seems to be, one on a PIP, put all your effort into finding the next job rather than trying to keep your current one.

if you don't pass the PIP, you often get blacklisted and won't ever get hired again. so if you get another job and quit, say good bye. If the new company you work for get's acquired, you will be let go and won't be integrated back into the fold.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#390

Post by datacruncher01 »

Stack ranking biggest flaw is that it results in managers gaming the system by over hiring to create strategic buffer ftes they can drop if they need to. Which leads to a reoccurring need to use stack ranking and more over hiring.
Post reply on HN