Live data from Hacker News

A coder considers the waning days of the craft

newyorker.com

381–390 of 1001 posts

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#381
post #350

Here is the controversial take from my perspective: All these AI replacing coders and creatives is just a broad marketing campaign to put downward pressure on dev and creative salary. We could've said the same thing back when Code generation was popular. Or we couod say the same thing about stackoverflow, because a non-tech person can bungle together enough solutions from there to build something. Heck NoCode(TM) was…

>All these AI replacing coders and creatives is just a broad marketing campaign to put downward pressure on dev and creative salary.

I see it as the work being replaced not actually being valuable work in the first place, at least not as valuable as some of us want them to be.

Take copywriting for example, that industry got decimated basically overnight by "AI". Why? It's because the work was actually not valuable, it was work any sufficiently complicated program could do let alone a common man. Writing catchy sales catches and blurbs? It's frankly a miracle that industry lasted as long and valued as high as it did.

Or the art scene for another example; if you as an artist or illustrator can be replaced by "AI" then your art was actually only worth a dime a dozen. I say this as a blunt objective observation, not intended as any personal attack or the like.

Or for an even more brutal example: Journalism. We literally can't tell apart man-written and "AI"-written journalism, and that's because man-written journalism has been in the absolute gutter for years if not decades now. Journalism is bad enough today that "AI"-journalists could come in and do an equal if not better job of it than man-journalists.

"AI" is, like many tools of astronomical convenience that came before it, making the act of work more accurately reflect its real value. Some workers will lose, others will win, but ultimately we will all be better off because work and the perceived value of that work aligning better is a very good thing for both producers and consumers.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#382
> As he later put it, his own neural network had begun to align with GPT-4’s.

> Having found the A.I.’s level, I felt almost instantly that my working life had been transformed. Everywhere I looked I could see GPT-4-size holes; [...]

I think this is key for me at least. GPT-4 is really good once you start figuring out what problems NOT to give it. Because there are certain things that it can't solve no matter how much you prompt it in the right direction, and it gets really annoying really fast.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#383
I see a lot of comments wondering how AI could be useful as a software engineer so I'll give my take on it:

I envision it being able to fully replace a junior engineer, and in some use-cases senior engineers as well.

In the case of junior engineers: the AI should have access to an internal knowledge base (i.e. Confluence) and the task/ticketing system (Jira), and ideally the internal chat (Slack). I would assign tickets to it, and I'd expect the AI to reply with comments asking for clarification when there is something unclear, or proposing an implementation before starting if it's not a very simple task (this could even be defined in the task, using story points for instance.

Once cleared, the AI submits a PR linked to the task - so far just like any engineer in the team would. The PR gets reviewed as usual, with suggestions/requests for changes made by the (human) team, which then get addressed by the AI. With the big difference that all this process may happen in less than 1h from ticket creation to PR review.

I wouldn't expect it to be able to implement complex features, onboard new libraries, or rearchitect the system in major ways to accommodate future features - just like I wouldn't expect that from junior team members.

It would obviously be amazing if it could incorporate previous PR comments into it's "context" for future work, so it could learn and improve.

Separately I mentioned it could also do part of the job of senior team members - in the form of PR reviews. If it has access to every previous PR review and learns from them it might be able to give insightful suggestions, and for very large codebases it could have an advantage over humans as it could find patterns or existing code that may be overlooked (i.e. "It looks like this util function you added is the same as this one that was already there", or "This code looks different to similar areas, but follows a different pattern, you might want to rewrite it this way //..."

Is GPT-4 there? Definitely not, perhaps an LLM is not even the way to achieve this, but I absolutely see this becoming an incredible asset to a tech team.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#384
post #329
post #238

I don't see it - and by that I don't mean I don't think AI can write good code and get better over time. I just don't see how it would work as a workflow to replace (most) devs by AI. If I take a junior programmer's task, say, creating CRUD endpoints. Describing the requirement in a way that matches exactly what I want will probably take more time that doing the coding assisted by something like copilot. Can we reall…

At this stage, it's like a junior. It's pretty useful for the boilerplate or mundane stuff and even with implementation of algorithms from human description to computer code. It's also very good at converting a code from one language to another and getting stuff done when directed properly. I can definitely see how large impact it will have on the employment prospects of many. It's not replacing the engineers yet, bu…

> Even the increased productivity alone will reduce the demand

I’d argue that companies cutting their software budget will soon be overtaken by their competition. Software is never done, after all.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#385
post #355
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most real world systems increased efficiency leads to more demand, not less - barring physical constraints. Usually because we can now apply the _thing_ to way more complex scenarios. I predict way more software will be created per year and more complex software will exist and evolve at a faster pace. Once you make agriculture more efficient we can't really eat way more than today so we need less people working th…

Sure, the total demand increases but not the same kind of demand that it's replacing. We may end up seeing CSS specialists "rust belt" falling in poverty while theres substantial wealth build up among "prompt engineers" with good taste in aesthetics.

In any job if you overspecialize and don't learn the fundamentals you're at risk. A CSS specialist is like a CRT TV fixer as compared to a general programmer and an electrician, respectively. Those jobs always have numbered days.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#386

Am I the only one becoming less impressed by LLMs as time passes? I will admit, when Copilot first became a thing in 2021, I had my own “I’m about to become obsolete” moment. However, it’s become clear to me, both through my own experience and through research that has been conducted, that modern LLMs are fundamentally flawed and are not on the path to general intelligence. We are stuck with ancient (in AI terms) tec…

> Am I the only one becoming less impressed by LLMs as time passes? Not at all. I was very impressed at first but it's gotten to the point where I can no longer trust anything it says other than very high level overviews. For example, I asked it to help me implement my own sound synthesizer from scratch. I wanted to generate audio samples and save them to wave files. The high level overview was helpful and enabled me…

My takeaway from this is that we should lament the gradual death of niche forums where we can discuss this with real humans.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I've tried to get it to do something reasonably simple like this, it returns plausible-sounding code that doesn't work. My last attempt to use it was to do with resolving circular calculations in Excel - I wanted some way of calculating the sum of a geometric series without having the series in actual cells. It kept recommending things that didn't work. I'm always amazed to hear of people who manage to get…

> I wanted some way of calculating the sum of a geometric series without having the series in actual cells. There are simple explicit formulas for this.

yeah, sumproduct on google docs was the thing it kept suggesting, but not in a way that worked for the thing I wanted. I found a way around it in the end, but I feel I wasted 30 mins trying to get ChatGPT to understand what I wanted and give me something that actually worked.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#388
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$ cat /usr/share/dict/words | shuf | head -n 10 $ convert foo.png foo.jpg Took me almost literally two seconds to come up with that, unless your point is that at one point I had to learn it which, yeah, sure. What am I missing?

Okay GPT, tell me the bash command to convert a PNG to a JPG and add a sarcastic comment at the end.

Sarcastic? I'm earnestly perplexed.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#389
post #6

Maybe I’m in the minority. I’m definitely extremely impressed with GPT4, but coding to me was never really the point of software development. While GPT4 is incredible, it fails OFTEN. And it fails in ways that aren’t very clear. And it fails harder when there’s clearly not enough training resources on the subject matter. But even hypothetically if it was 20x better, wouldn’t that be a good thing? There’s so much of t…

I've been saying the same thing. Coding is the worst part of the process. I've been doing it for 20 years professionally and another 10 or more on top of that as a hobby. Don't care about code, just want to make things. Code sucks.

I think LLMs are the wrong solution for this problem.

Why make something that produces low level code based off of existing low level code instead of building up meaningful abstractions to make development easier and ensure that low level code was written right?

Basically react and other similar abstractions for other languages did more to take "coding" out of creating applications than gpt ever will IMO.

Re: A coder considers the waning days of the craft

#390
post #6

Maybe I’m in the minority. I’m definitely extremely impressed with GPT4, but coding to me was never really the point of software development. While GPT4 is incredible, it fails OFTEN. And it fails in ways that aren’t very clear. And it fails harder when there’s clearly not enough training resources on the subject matter. But even hypothetically if it was 20x better, wouldn’t that be a good thing? There’s so much of t…

Frankly, I enjoy software development more because I can bounce obscure ideas off GPT4 and get sufficient quality questions and ideas back on subjects whenever it suits my schedule, as well as code snippets that lets me solve the interesting bits faster.

Maybe it'll take the coding part of my job and hobbies away from me one day, but even then, I feel that is more of an opportunity than a threat - there are many hobby projects I'd like to work on that are too big to do from scratch where using LLMs are already helping make them more tractable as solo projects and I get to pick and choose which bits to write myself.

And my "grab bag" repo of utility code that doesn't fit elsewhere has had its first fully GPT4 written function. Nothing I couldn't have easily done myself, but something I was happy I didn't have to.

For people who are content doing low level, low skilled coding, though, it will be a threat unless they learn how to use it to take a step up.

Post reply on HN