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Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

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Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#381

Post by Barrin92 »

jjav wrote: post #374
Barrin92 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you point at actual suburbs Not the OP but when I lived in the US as an exchange student I lived in a suburb that looked exactly like the one in this video[1], which seems to be a fairly typical middle class neighborhood. Like him I had the same experience of barely being able to walk anywhere, given how little space there even is for pedestrians. [1] https://youtu.be/39QOw4IL0Gk?t=509

In the middle of the aerial shot I see what looks like some kind of store complex and there's another commercial-looking building on the far left of the frame. Can't tell what kinds of stores are in these buildings, but they are within an extremely short walk from the houses in the video. So I'm not sure how this is an example of suburbs where one can't walk anywhere.

There's more parking lots and roads reserved for cars then there's space for people to walk. When people think of walkable towns they mean something like this: https://youtu.be/zDLa-uCq9Ws?t=137

Car free zones, shops, restaurants and pedestrians taking up 90% of the space, mixed. Not one lonely sad mall. It's not an exgaratation to say when you pull up an aerial google map shot of a US suburb, there's more asphalt than people or buildings.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#382

Post by notahacker »

germandiago wrote: post #132

It is true. One of the things that stroke me the most when I first visited England is that, at least in Hove and Brighton and Eastbourne, all streets had houses, no flats at all. This also made distances longer. Written from a flat :)

Tbf, some of those houses have been turned into as many as half a dozen small studio flats (worth as much as proper houses in some other UK cities - Brighton is expensive)

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#383

Post by jjav »

mikebenfield wrote: post #375
jjav wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> due to the nature of US suburbs The US is a big place. Lots of different suburbs. > everything you might want to go to is still at least a moderate car ride away, there's no people out and about because there's no reason for them to be there Can you point at specific places like this? Google street view links? Every suburb I've lived in the US I can walk to just about everything I need, kids walk to playground and…

To be honest this is one of those Internet comments where I feel like the commenter is in a different reality than me. None of the dozens of suburban US people I've known has ever found it feasible to walk to much of anything - yes, maybe a neighborhood playground if they're lucky. They definitely don't walk to the grocery store, to a restaurant, to a bar, to the gym, to work, etc. Here's a suburb: https://www.google…

> To be honest this is one of those Internet comments where I feel like the commenter is in a different reality than me.

Same, but that's why I say the US is a big place. There isn't a standard US suburb.

> They definitely don't walk to the grocery store, to a restaurant, to a bar, to the gym, to work, etc.

That is alien to my experience. I can walk to all of those, with multiple instances of each one, from a suburban SFH.

On the first link near Charlotte, I have two comments: First one is that it stretches the definition of suburb. Switch to satellite view and zoom out until you see Charlotte. Those houses are in the midst of vast stretches of green, far away from the nearest urban area (Charlotte) a half hour away. That seems semi-rural to me. Are we calling that a suburb?

Even so, there is a supermarket, gym, tavern and a few other stores within 1 mile. A very easy bike ride.

The second link is definitely suburban, smack in the middle of built-up areas. Also more familiar to me since I have lived in various spots not far from there. You can easily walk to Saratoga Ave which is full of businesses.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#384

Post by bluefirebrand »

estebank wrote: post #139
Mawr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Ebikes let you cover great distances with little effort. - You can have someone ride on the backseat or in the cargo space of a cargo bike. [1] - You'd be hard pressed to come up with a shopping load that won't fit on a cargo bike. [1] Then there's the cost vs a car [2], which will likely make up for any inconvenience. Of course, you do need at least decent bike infrastructure for this to be realistic. [1]: https:/…

> You'd be hard pressed to come up with a shopping load that won't fit on a cargo bike. There's a side effect of car prevalence and land use in the US: everyone can be "expected" to have a car, so grocery shops tend to locate in places further away with cheaper land, which make it more convenient to make big shops, which require a car... I find that most Americans are not comfortable or even familiar with "I'll pop i…

I lived that "grocery store a block away" lifestyle and I still preferred to drive to get groceries.

Not because I'm lazy, but because the nearby grocery store often cost more than double for the same items.

And it was a grocery store, not a convenience store. Convenience stores were even worse.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#385

Post by gumby »

sofixa wrote: post #227
gumby wrote: post #206

> Between 1950 and 1975, thousands of Spaniards migrated from the countryside to the city. Franco's dictatorship Ministry of Housing promoted the construction of high-rise housing estates to accommodate them. The same thing happened in other countries like the US, UK and France, yet the outcome was negative rather than positive. What was different about Spain that it worked out well? (side point: I would rather have…

How was the outcome negative in France? There were failures in ensuring the new high rising estates don't become ghettos due to lack of opportunities and self-reinforcing vicious cycles, which have been in large part corrected and have been taken into account for any new high rise / housing (re)developments. And there has been a lack of enough developments in the big cities for a variety of reasons. But overall I wou…

> How was the outcome negative in France?

Your point is good: I have friends in some developments around Paris and they are perfectly fine. But the hostile banlieus are pretty bad, and such hostile environments have developed in the UK and USA to the point where they are being torn down.

Is the same true in Spain?

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#386

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

lsllc wrote: post #368
causality0 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always interesting to me that the Spanish get a special demonym. I am American and also an American, but a Spanish person is a Spaniard.

No need to feel left out, in Spanish you're a Estadounidense. https://www.quora.com/What-does-estadounidense-mean-in-Spani...

I think that the correct english translation of that is "Usonian" (Frank Lloyd Wright's term).

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#387

Post by jjav »

Barrin92 wrote: post #381
jjav wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the middle of the aerial shot I see what looks like some kind of store complex and there's another commercial-looking building on the far left of the frame. Can't tell what kinds of stores are in these buildings, but they are within an extremely short walk from the houses in the video. So I'm not sure how this is an example of suburbs where one can't walk anywhere.

There's more parking lots and roads reserved for cars then there's space for people to walk. When people think of walkable towns they mean something like this: https://youtu.be/zDLa-uCq9Ws?t=137 Car free zones, shops, restaurants and pedestrians taking up 90% of the space, mixed. Not one lonely sad mall. It's not an exgaratation to say when you pull up an aerial google map shot of a US suburb, there's more asphalt th…

> There's more parking lots and roads reserved for cars then there's space for people to walk. When people think of walkable towns they mean something like this: https://youtu.be/zDLa-uCq9Ws?t=137

Ok but that's changing the goalposts of the discussion.

I totally agree it's more cute to walk in Heidelberg than the suburban area shown in that video (wherever it was). I've spent some time there and it was nice.

But the claim in the top of the thread was that in a suburb you are forced to stay home because it is basically impossible to walk anywhere, nothing is reachable on foot within reasonable distance. In my experience that's not true and I question whether it is true in most areas. Whenever I've lived in suburbs in the US (which is most of my life) I've always been able to walk to nearly everything I need within a reasonable & convenient walk. I often do because it's nice to walk.

If you change the discussion to be whether it's prettier and nicer to walk in a pedestrian street like in the video, then sure, I agree.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#388

Post by pier25 »

wackget wrote: post #268
spaintech wrote: post #73

What a fantastic site! Wish more titea were build this way. It was an awesome experience! I’m an outsider living in Spain for the last 22 years, I think that while the content portrays a reality of the high rise movement in Spain, there is an angle that was missed. It is important to say that the at time draconian land laws pay an important role in the urban landscape. Not to mention that Spain relative young democra…

Unpopular opinion but I hate the design of the site. The transitions are too slow and the entire site is inaccessible to anyone with vertigo, visual processing or balance disorders. Needless to say it also doesn't respect the browser's `prefers-reduced-motion` preference. A massive case of style over substance for me.

I agree and I don't have vertigo or any other disorder. This is just bad UX.

The charts and graphs are also not very good. You can't search, sort, or filter in any way.

Also no light mode which is also terrible UX. People with astigmatism can have a hard time with dark mode.

https://medium.com/@h_locke/why-dark-mode-causes-more-access...

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#389

Post by Panzer04 »

siquick wrote: post #341
bluGill wrote: post #136

I don't have a large enough sample to make a statement, but my impression is apartments in Spain are larger than in the US. Even if you want to live in an apartment, if you want more space you are forced to buy a house. You can't get a 4 bedroom apartment (3 kids? separate office? hobby room?...) You can't get an apartment with two "living rooms" (music room, tv room, rec room...). You don't need any of that, but if…

One of the major problems with apartment living here in Sydney (or Melbourne) is the lack of 3 bedroom apartments - there just isn’t any. So once you have a family you either stay in a 2 bedroom (most of which are pretty small) or move miles out to the outer suburbs which have zero amenities and commute for over an hour each way.

Or spend a couple of million on a gigantic house in the inner suburbs.. :/

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#390

Post by mikebenfield »

jjav wrote: post #383
mikebenfield wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest this is one of those Internet comments where I feel like the commenter is in a different reality than me. None of the dozens of suburban US people I've known has ever found it feasible to walk to much of anything - yes, maybe a neighborhood playground if they're lucky. They definitely don't walk to the grocery store, to a restaurant, to a bar, to the gym, to work, etc. Here's a suburb: https://www.google…

> To be honest this is one of those Internet comments where I feel like the commenter is in a different reality than me. Same, but that's why I say the US is a big place. There isn't a standard US suburb. > They definitely don't walk to the grocery store, to a restaurant, to a bar, to the gym, to work, etc. That is alien to my experience. I can walk to all of those, with multiple instances of each one, from a suburba…

So there's a pretty big push for urbanism the last few years. There's lots of YouTube channels and other social media stuff dedicated to the idea that the US needs more walkable neighborhoods, more bike infrastructure, less car dependence, etc.

In your view then... what in the world is this about? If suburbs are perfectly walkable, why does anyone care about urbanism? Why does this channel https://www.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes have over a million subscribers?

Moreover, why is the suburb such a post-automobile phenomenon? If it's viable to get everywhere from a suburb without a car, why were people in 1000 BCE or 1000 CE or 1800 CE not living in suburbs?

I just find this perspective so weird... I've definitely met plenty of people who are very pro-suburb, but it's because they consider it natural and acceptable to need a car for any trip, not because they think they can get places without a car.

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