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M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

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Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#381

Post by virtue3 »

cubefox wrote: post #3

This seems to be a lot of effort to rationalize the surprisingly small performance increase from M2 to M3. Initially the assumption was that M2 to M3 would be a bigger step than M1 to M2, not a smaller one. Perhaps TSMC 3nm is showing the limits of scaling?

I heard from a a hardware developer that the main wins for the M* architecture is really that they integrated the memory onto the cpu die and then the unified memory architecture between the GPU and CPU which was "holy grail" type stuff a decade ago.

I don't think we're going to see the performance increases past the ~10-20% each fab cycle now.

Performance per watt and having dedicated HW for video decoding / other tasks(AI?) I think might end up being the answer to the continuation of Moore's law. Especially considering that we are in the era of heterogenous computing.

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#382

Post by exabrial »

GeekyBear wrote: post #179
exabrial wrote: post #158

I think I'll hold out to the M4 and make sure memory bandwidth and latency is restored to it's previous value.

Given that Intel and AMD tend to choke the memory bandwidth on anything below their server chips, this seems short sighted. The M3 Pro's "reduced memory bandwidth" is still double the memory bandwidth you see on Intel and AMD's HEDT chips. Step up to the M3 Max and you're looking at five times the memory bandwidth of Intel and AMD's chips.

Fair point, I think what I'm saying is I'm currently at an M1. I think waiting for an M4 will be another 10x leap. Apple is hellbent to release something new every year, so I think my M1 should last me quite a long time.

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#383

Post by ch_sm »

floydnoel wrote: post #359
scrlk wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entry level pricing for a MacBook Pro now starts at $1599 rather than $1299.

That thing had the same CPU as the MacBook Air. There was nothing "pro" about it. I'm so happy it's finally gone!

the new one also has the non-pro, non-max M3.

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#384

Post by spacedcowboy »

wubrr wrote: post #327
spacedcowboy wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the newer tools changed the licensing terms, and the corporate lawyers won’t let anything under GPL3 anywhere near anything if they can help it. GPL2 was viral, but the terms were easier to stomach. Apple is allergic to GPLv3 code because there is a clause in the license requiring you provide a way to run modified version of the software which would require Apple to let users self sign executables. This is a…

> Apple is fine with not using software licensed under the GPL, when it conflicts with other company principles. Apple can be fine with whatever they want and choose whatever principles they want. Doesn't mean it leads to good software or that I need to like it.

Right, but you’re not important in this context.

- Apple is shipping stuff out to customers.

- Whatever is shipped has to satisfy corporate policy.

- The GPLv3 does not do so.

That’s what matters. The only way what you care about has any impact on the above is if there is a meaningful impact for Apple for following the policy, and Apple suffering some sort of loss (be it monetary, PR, legal etc).

Thus far, the non-presence of GPLv3 software does not appear to have hit that bar.

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#385

Post by philistine »

the-golden-one wrote: post #375
philistine wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The original Apple Arcade strategy was for AAA titles Can you prove that statement? I bet you can't, cause it's simply not true. Every Arcade title is playable from an iPhone to a Mac by way of Apple TV. It was never going to get AAA titles.

Here you go. A simple google would have found that. Apple wants more Grindstones. https://9to5mac.com/2020/06/30/apple-arcade-strategy-shift/

How is cancelling contracts with some developers equal to they wanted AAA titles but messed it up.?

There’s no correlation.

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#386

Post by deagle50 »

cubefox wrote: post #372
deagle50 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is favoring yields and margin over everything else. They cut the M3 Pro as much as possible so it's half the area of the M2 Pro.

That would explain it. Reduced chip size, presumably due to increase in price per transistor. But do you have evidence for this theory?

Why else go through the trouble of a custom layout for the M3 Pro with multiple custom reductions (caches, vector units, cores, memory controllers) vs lopping off half of the Max GPU like in the two previous generations?

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#388

Post by jwells89 »

silverwind wrote: post #378
jwells89 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really buy this explanation. I'm talking about using a single external monitor here, a monitor which I regularly also use with linux (intel/amd) laptops without a single issue. Might be model-specific then. It’s not something I’ve seen with displays from Asus, Alienware, and Apple. I briefly owned a Dell monitor that would periodically flicker but it got returned. > That's not really a good reason though. I…

In my experience, MacOS monitor support is very hit or miss. For an Asus Gaming monitor, I had to write a custom plist file to get it to even show a picture and getting it to run at native resolution took a lot of experimenting. I would not buy any new monitor for MacOS that does not explicitely advertize MacOS support.

That’s kinda wild. Is there anything remotely unusual about the monitor, like high rez and refresh rate?

I was pleasantly surprised when I plugged the AW2721D that’s part of my gaming setup into my daily driver Mac. Everything worked great, including 240hz and variable refresh.

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#389

Post by camillomiller »

jeffbee wrote: post #59
camillomiller wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you get the idea of small performance increase. What I'm seeing until now, also in pre-review unites, is actually the opposite, especially when ray tracing and mesh shading get taken into account. For anything GPU related these new machines are a giant leap.

Are these mainstream use cases? These always feel like they are chosen to demonstrate the processor's strengths, instead of talking about the ways the processor helps in real applications.

Is playing games with insane light effects and mesh shaded scenes on a family computer mainstream enough?

Re: M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores

#390

Post by tubs »

virtue3 wrote: post #381
cubefox wrote: post #3

This seems to be a lot of effort to rationalize the surprisingly small performance increase from M2 to M3. Initially the assumption was that M2 to M3 would be a bigger step than M1 to M2, not a smaller one. Perhaps TSMC 3nm is showing the limits of scaling?

I heard from a a hardware developer that the main wins for the M* architecture is really that they integrated the memory onto the cpu die and then the unified memory architecture between the GPU and CPU which was "holy grail" type stuff a decade ago. I don't think we're going to see the performance increases past the ~10-20% each fab cycle now. Performance per watt and having dedicated HW for video decoding / other t…

The memory is not on the die. It's in the package just like pretty much every other big boy mobile ap out there.
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