80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans • Hacker News Board

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#381

Post by dxdm » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:36 PM UTC

floucky wrote: post #376

rco8786 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument all the time, but I've onboarded like a dozen new hires and juniors since going fully remote in 2020. It's fine. The tools and processes are different, but fundamentally it's still just about communicating and working together. You genuinely do not have to be in the same physical room to do that. That said, the problem I do see is that the folks hired into a fully remote environment have a signifi…

Well, these people were lucky to have you. Unfortunately, many people just want to not be disturbed, and it's much easier to ignore someone through Slack than in person.

That's a question of culture and organization. Onboarding a new hire is a job, and someone has to do it. Same for mentoring juniors. If you're relying on in-office for that, because the newbie needs to tap physical shoulders to get attention, then I'd argue the setup is not good to begin with.

I've spent years now in a fully remote team, and we had no problem getting people integrated and productive, and bonding everyone into a real team. Likewise, I was the newbie in in-office teams before and have felt like an outsider who needs to beg for help for months.

In my experience, remote or not is not the deciding factor for onboarding and team building.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#382

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:37 PM UTC

floucky wrote: post #320

throwaway892238 wrote: post #60

I decided I will never again work in an office, for the rest of my life. It's a lifestyle choice. I refuse to put up with the B.S. anymore. I'm lucky that I've had a long career and my skills are very much in demand, so I will always be able to find a remote job somewhere. People doing jobs with more qualified candidates in the pool will probably have a harder time, and that sucks. For them, I hope they can band toge…

Don't you think full remote is kind of selfish? I mean, I also love it, but what about new hires and junior? How are they going to learn and improve if each time they have a question, they need to post it on slack and just wait...

[deleted]

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#383

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:39 PM UTC

floucky wrote: post #373

o1y32 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it occur to you that there are people who were hired during the pandemic, who had full virtual onboarding experience? How did they survive? Actually I myself joined my current company after March 2020. I can't imagine a 5-day, in-person experience would be any more effective or productive. If anything, I was able to completely pay no attention the mandatory training of "corporate value" nonsense -- it felt great…

I joined a new company in September, and most of my colleagues were fully remote. I have enough experience and was able to handle myself, but when I imagine this situation in my first year, I'm sure it would have been much harder.

[deleted]

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#384

Post by bluefirebrand » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:41 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #279

bluefirebrand wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that it's still the result of human action, it's purposeful and intentional. It's just not conspiracy. It's not emergent out of nowhere. It's emergent out of shitty people being in positions of power and influence.

>it's still the result of human action, it's purposeful and intentional. Orcheastras imply a conductor, a central figure with the score to direct their symphony to play. 1000 conductors means there is no conductor. Each one may have a purpose and intention, but a conspiracy implies... well, conspiring. That isn't a conspiracy, it's a mob. Even if somehow the symphony manages to make a melody out of the madness, it's…

> 1000 conductors means there is no conductor.

1000 conductors means that there is 1000 conductors and 1000 orchestras.

They've all done their research, and they've all independently decided to have their orchestras play mostly the same songs as all the other orchestras.

They've arrived at this decision by copying what the most successful orchestras are doing, reading in orchestra magazines about best practice for orchestras, going to orchestra conferences, talking to other conductors over expensive meals and games of golf, etc

I agree it's not a conspiracy. There's no big room where all the conductors get together and all agree which songs to play.

But it's not accidental either. Each conductor is seeking the best song list, and by using the resources available to them they are all coming to similar conclusions.

I think I've tortured this metaphor enough.

I just do not want the human element to be abstracted from the equation here. Yes, I agree there's no conspiracy. Ultimately this crap is "emergent" from the systems in place. Those systems were built by humans, and then the "emergent" behavior is just humans concluding "based on this system in place this is the best set of actions I can take". Those humans then are successful so other humans try to copy them.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#385

Post by petre » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:41 PM UTC

Hendrikto wrote: post #377

petre wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet I know that in other countries (e.g., Japan) there is a belief that any job, no matter how humble, is worth doing well and that passion for excellence is a virtue That's a reason why the quality of most Japanese products is superlative. Another nation that is passionate about their stuff are Italians, but they value good looks and good food above all. The US values profits and growth and China values high outpu…

> Another nation that is passionate about their stuff are Italians At least where I am from, Italians have a reputation for shoddy products, laziness, and not caring. As you say: They are happy as long as the facade looks good. Behind the scenes is a mess.

You're probably from Germany, the Nederlands or Denmark then. It's a common Northern European prejudice to consider southerners "lazy".

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#386

Post by the_gipsy » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:42 PM UTC

floucky wrote: post #320

throwaway892238 wrote: post #60

I decided I will never again work in an office, for the rest of my life. It's a lifestyle choice. I refuse to put up with the B.S. anymore. I'm lucky that I've had a long career and my skills are very much in demand, so I will always be able to find a remote job somewhere. People doing jobs with more qualified candidates in the pool will probably have a harder time, and that sucks. For them, I hope they can band toge…

Don't you think full remote is kind of selfish? I mean, I also love it, but what about new hires and junior? How are they going to learn and improve if each time they have a question, they need to post it on slack and just wait...

What's the big deal?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#387

Post by theGnuMe » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:44 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #62

ChuckMcM wrote: post #39

I had lunch, not too long ago, with a senior executive of a silicon valley tech company that was moaning about how much of a pain it was to get people to come into the office and how it felt like things would never return to the way they were. And I told them I actually knew of a way to get 100% of their employees to return to the office happily. When they asked what this magic bullet was I said, "Go back to offices,…

I get to have lunch with my partner every day and see them when I take breaks working from home. That’ll never happen at an office, and it’s more valuable than any comp to me. I would not entertain on site even at 500k/year (legit offer from a high frequency trading firm in downtown Chicago for an infosec cloud/iam engineer role). I can always make more money, and I only need so much to live well, but I have a finite…

I will take that 500k offer. Got a link?

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#388

Post by chasd00 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:49 PM UTC

eulgro wrote: post #207

throw__away7391 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I start work around 6:00 AM and frequently am still at it at 8:00 PM. I've always been a top performer, but I still worry I'm not productive enough and that I'll get laid off. I still prefer this arrangement to going to the office.

Is this satire? If not I don't think that's a sustainable lifestyle.

The people two rungs up the ladder from me in my consulting job work like this, if not more so.

They all have families and are PTA presidents and things so def not absentee parents or spouses. Some people just have a seemingly unending source of energy and ambition.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#389

Post by laserlight » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:54 PM UTC

Thlom wrote: post #333

laserlight wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which includes the time to get dressed Thanks for mentioning this. It drives me crazy how people think of commute time as the time their engines are running, whereas the overhead of doing so is relatively significant.

Do you guys actually WFH in your underpants?

I’m always in my home wear, t-shirt and shorts.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#390

Post by ascotan » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 12:55 PM UTC

troupe wrote: post #48

atleastoptimal wrote: post #15

I understand the merits of WFH and in-person work. One thing that is however funny is the guilt tripping used by employers who have this straw-man version of a lazy WFH employee, and more so, employers who have a delusion that their workplace is important enough that people need to sacrifice a large portion of their lives just for the opportunity to be there in person. 90% of jobs aren't people's "passions" and have…

I find it funny that when people were required to be home, employers talked about what great productivity they were getting with people at home. Then when it isn't required anymore, they want everyone back in the office for...productivity. My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good...and now we are ba…

I think the definition of "productivity" is part of the problem. Managers view "productivity" as the ability to bounce ideas off each other and working collaboratively to get traction on hard problems.

This isn't how most engineers write software at the ground level though. Engineers need quiet concentration, free from distraction. Yes, there are hard problems that need collaboration to solve, but that type of interaction can be scheduled when needed. Far from needing to "bounce ideas" off other engineers, most senior engineers are pretty self-sufficient.

There is a different issue at play with junior engineers. They need supervision and that's hard to do unless your on a zoom call with them all day long. This isn't a new problem - it's simply a problem exposed by being remote. When we were in the office, all these junior engineers, were pulling productivity away from your senior engineers. Moving everything back to the office didn't increase productivity, it's actually decreasing it. Commute + sidebar conversations + mentoring junior engineers = less productivity out of your senior engineering staff.

There's definitely a "managers are from mars and engineers are from venus" sort of vibe happening here. Managers need that interaction and collaboration in order to provide oversight and provide direction. Senior engineers need a place to concentrate - and typically that isn't in the office where we have noisy open floor plans.