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Why is desalination so difficult?

practical.engineering

381–390 of 644 posts

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#381
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61483491 Nuclear desalination like on naval ships is the answer. US and Russian ships already have the technology, it just needs to be scaled for use on land.

Nuclear power in general would be the answer to a lot of energy problems. But the general public in most places doesn't like it.

Is not just a question of preferences, there are risks also.

If the problem is that we need lots of energy to create pressure to separate salt from brine, well... I figure out that there is a lot of free "all that you can eat" pressure in the sea bottom.

The problem would be to calculate if moving all this weight up and down the sea (and in open sea) would be economical or not. Or of would unavoidably lead to people cutting corners and release part of the salt to the deep water ecosystems. Deep water masses are salty yet so a small amount of salt would impact less here than if released on surface, thats for sure.

In any case, physic laws about density and mass are our friend. Things either float or sink without extra energy added.

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#382
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Desalinization is cheap. It works just fine for providing water for coastal people . As California is proving. What it does not do is provide freshwater for argibusinesses. As California is also proving in the Central Valley. :(

There are no water pipes from the coast to the central valley? I wonder if NIMBYism blocked that? And if an agency wanted to transport water like the USA national oil pipeline system, would they be blocked similarly?

There's no way the water would be affordable for agriculture if it had to pay for pumping it uphill/inland. There's a reason the rivers flow in the other direction.

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#383
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>85% of the country's drinkable water "the country" in this context is Israel, since HN truncates the wiki link right before that.

OK, so we got a country that needs machines to survive (no desalination plant, no water to drink). Maybe it's time to understand that it's not a long term strategy ? That may be they should move to another place where water is naturally more abundant ?

> may be they should move

As if immigration isn't a hugely fraught political topic. And you might want to consider how many people moved to Israel and why.

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#384
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>85% of the country's drinkable water "the country" in this context is Israel, since HN truncates the wiki link right before that.

OK, so we got a country that needs machines to survive (no desalination plant, no water to drink). Maybe it's time to understand that it's not a long term strategy ? That may be they should move to another place where water is naturally more abundant ?

Every country needs lots of machines to survive. We'd all starve and freeze to death pretty quickly without 'em.

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you see that with surfers. at 30, they look like they're 50

And you're attributing this all to sea water exposure? My intuition is that sun exposure would be a bigger factor.

a little from column A, a little from column B

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#386
Difficult is not an absolute. It needs to be "in comparison to something".

Desalination is verrrrry easy if nature does it for us (sun on the salty sea -> clouds -> precipitation over land). Compared to this, doing it "with a machine" is hard.

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#387
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power in general would be the answer to a lot of energy problems. But the general public in most places doesn't like it.

Is not just a question of preferences, there are risks also. If the problem is that we need lots of energy to create pressure to separate salt from brine, well... I figure out that there is a lot of free "all that you can eat" pressure in the sea bottom. The problem would be to calculate if moving all this weight up and down the sea (and in open sea) would be economical or not. Or of would unavoidably lead to people…

Having all of this in mind, I would go further and propose to regulate by law changing the material of the deep sea submarine ballasts.

It seems technically doable and would have some benefits

1) Lesser impact on deep sea ecosystems. No human trace left behind.

Disposable loads of iron or concrete will remain forever in the bottom. If we use salt or sand instead the impact on fragile deep sea ecosystems seems reduced. The organisms there are adapted naturally to deal with very salty water. The sand or salt ballast could be released gradually over a bigger surface reducing even more the impact over a particular spot or colony

2) Improved economics?

To dump valuable iron made with valuable energy into the sea seems a suboptimal solution. Substitute it with some common by products that are yet in the area and don't need to be transported from a mine far away could save some money probably. Containers of ballast would be fully recyclable also.

Ships could be adapted to literally making part the ballast on the open sea while in campaign, instead to need to carry all of it from a port.

3) Extra safety.

If your load weight gets stuck by a net you are trapped in the bottom forever, With a ballast of sand or salt you have the extra possibility of open a few escape valves and let the concentrated salt go away. You can also release part of the weight much more gradually. After a while the submarine would tend to float and ascend automatically even if the energy supply would have been entirely lost in an accident.

Having the machine on the surface (or closer to the surface) would save millions and would made a big difference on humanitary and economical aspects of the rescue operation. A damaged submarine can be still repaired. Building another would be much more expensive.

Dunno about the possible negative aspects, more volume required for example, but would deserve thinking about it a little more.

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#388
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microplastics found in 90 percent of table salt https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/micro... The presence of microplastics in commercial salts from different countries [2017] https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46173 Global Pattern of Microplastics (MPs) in Commercial Food-Grade Salts: Sea Salt as an Indicator of Seawater MP Pollution [2018] https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.8b04180 Micropla…

thank you for the information, for sure, but i was responding to the claim that sea salt "needs cleaning" to point out that that seasalt isn't being cleaned, so it puts an upper bound on the value of need as it concerns the commercial market including govt regulation. My suspicion was that where would be more to worry about from single-celled life detritus, heavy metals, forever chemicals etc, but the marketplace doe…

> plastic is pretty inert which is why it remains around for so long, and while it is made from toxic things, it's generally considered safe.

This is very ignorant. plastics release a wide variety of organic compounds.

"Most plastic products, from sippy cups to food wraps, can release chemicals that act like the sex hormone estrogen, according to a study in Environmental Health Perspectives. The study found these chemicals even in products that didn't contain BPA, a compound in certain plastics that's been widely criticized because it mimics estrogen."

Which is why you see plastic change - look at old plastics around you, in shoes, food containers and fabrics - it becomes brittle, changes colour, etc.

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The brine waste from RO is still mostly water. In order to extract the salt you'd need to evaporate the water which still takes a lot more energy. You could use evaporative ponds to let the Sun do the work but that takes a lot of space. In either case you're spending a lot more money per pound than just digging the salt out of a mine.

> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61483491 Nuclear desalination like on naval ships is the answer. US and Russian ships already have the technology, it just needs to be scaled for use on land.

Actually solar powered desalination makes a lot more sence - solar is much cheaper and you don't need 24/7 properties of nuclear. so you are overpaying for no reason.

We cam store huge quantities of water, sometimes a year's worth. So intermittency is not a prohlem.

The idea of floating nuclear reactors used for whatever was floating around for a while, but won't happen with government support. It is really just another approach to modular reactors, not a terrible one, but free market wont do it.

What would make more sence, is making all our large cargo ships nuclear powered, and reducing emissions that way

Re: Why is desalination so difficult?

#390
post #376
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Israelis ran into this problem with their mineral extraction in the Dead Sea, so they're bulldozing the dry salt waste to build a physical wall for border security (more than 10 meters high) that's apparently hard to climb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgTheUjeDlg

Errrr...rain? Runoff?

Answered at 2:16 of the video - the claim is that the rain actually helps, as it makes the "mountain" steeper.
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