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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

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Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#381

Post by klodolph »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #364
klodolph wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “hey guys” thing is always some friend-of-a-friend who says it happened. I’m sure there are receipts for it happening somewhere, but it sounds like it’s uncommon. The CoC is mainly used to eject serial harassers out of a community, as far as I can tell. Serial harassers generally try to skirt the rules and hide their behavior, so the CoC has that “violations of this code outside these spaces” clause in it. You kn…

> The “hey guys” thing is always some friend-of-a-friend who says it happened. I’m sure there are receipts for it happening somewhere, but it sounds like it’s uncommon. I’ve encountered it directly multiple times, so I’m feeling slightly gaslighted. > but nobody’s getting ejected from the community for refusing to use the terms. How do you know this? And which communities are you referring to? Surely you can’t be sug…

> I’ve encountered it directly multiple times, so I’m feeling slightly gaslighted.

Could you elaborate on this? It’s just not something I’ve ever witnessed, and I’ve never heard any direct accounts of it, so I would be very interested in hearing more about it.

> Surely you can’t be suggesting that no company has ever reprimanded an employee for refusing to stop using certain kinds of language?

You are correct—I am not suggesting that. That’s what “please don’t interpret universal quantifiers mathematically” means—it means, exactly as you said, that I am not suggesting that “no company has ever”.

It sounds like you’ve shifted the discussion from communities (like GCC developers) to companies. Companies have HR departments, and they have their own ways of managing employee behaviors—so the discussion about how someone got in trouble at some company does not seem germane.

> At least anecdotally, I can tell you that it was a problem when a former colleague refused to stop saying “that’s what she said.”

If an employee refuses to stop saying “that’s what she said”, then it is good for the employee to get in trouble. I’m not sure what kind of inferences you are making here. If you’re making the argument that someone should be able to say “that’s what she said” in a work environment without consequences, then we disagree there. To me, it’s obvious that the joke is inappropriate at work.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#382

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

klodolph wrote: post #381
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The “hey guys” thing is always some friend-of-a-friend who says it happened. I’m sure there are receipts for it happening somewhere, but it sounds like it’s uncommon. I’ve encountered it directly multiple times, so I’m feeling slightly gaslighted. > but nobody’s getting ejected from the community for refusing to use the terms. How do you know this? And which communities are you referring to? Surely you can’t be sug…

> I’ve encountered it directly multiple times, so I’m feeling slightly gaslighted. Could you elaborate on this? It’s just not something I’ve ever witnessed, and I’ve never heard any direct accounts of it, so I would be very interested in hearing more about it. > Surely you can’t be suggesting that no company has ever reprimanded an employee for refusing to stop using certain kinds of language? You are correct—I am no…

> Could you elaborate on this? It’s just not something I’ve ever witnessed, and I’ve never heard any direct accounts of it, so I would be very interested in hearing more about it.

It's been the policy at two companies I've worked at, and the policy has been enforced. Also I have seen it in some open source communities. For example, if you type "hey guys" into the Elm language Slack channel, you get this automated response:

> Terms like guys can make people feel like they're being left out! :scream: Let everyone and all the folks know you're talking to them! :hearts: :robot_face:

---

> It sounds like you’ve shifted the discussion from communities (like GCC developers) to companies. Companies have HR departments, and they have their own ways of managing employee behaviors—so the discussion about how someone got in trouble at some company does not seem germane.

Companies are communities too. Often with shared, codified values. Like, you know, a code of conduct.

> If you’re making the argument that someone should be able to say “that’s what she said” in a work environment without consequences, then we disagree there. To me, it’s obvious that the joke is inappropriate at work.

That's not the argument I'm making, so don't construct a strawman, thanks.

It's clear to me you are not listening and instead you are relying on logical fallacies, so let's end the discussion here.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#383

Post by mikecoles »

iudqnolq wrote: post #232
godshatter wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a big nope from me. The scope of the CoC should not extend beyond interactions in the confines of their project otherwise you get people digging up something people said when they were 12 or making value judgements based on their public lifestyle and trying to get them removed because of it. Pretty much the opposite of "inclusive".

Then you get the ongoing debate in the C++ community about whether it's appropriate for someone with a criminal record of sexual abuse to have a trusted role at in person events.

It's never appropriate to trust someone confirmed to have sexually abused another. There's no debate.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#384

Post by Aerroon »

LexiMax wrote: post #91
commandlinefan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CoC opens up ways for character assassination Has it ever been used in any other way?

Are you asking if a set of rules used to outline acceptable conduct in project participation has ever been enforced in good faith? Because they have, and I guarantee you that you've been aware of such enforcement actions in the past.

But do you need a code of conduct to do that though?

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#385

Post by iudqnolq »

mikecoles wrote: post #383
iudqnolq wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you get the ongoing debate in the C++ community about whether it's appropriate for someone with a criminal record of sexual abuse to have a trusted role at in person events.

It's never appropriate to trust someone confirmed to have sexually abused another. There's no debate.

I agree with you. But the C++ community did debate, and ended up deciding to trust him.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#386

Post by commitpizza »

TimedToasts wrote: post #120
commitpizza wrote: post #30

I can't wait until the silent majority stops being silent and throws out CoC and their people from projects. It is seriously a toxic thing that creates debates over stuff where there is no need for it to be a debate to begin with.

Still too dangerous to speak out. I wouldn't advise anyone to do so if they are currently employed or would like to be employed in the future.

I don't know, I live in one of the most woke countries on earth most likely so I have some experience in speaking out. I have only ever lost like one job over it and I always speak my mind about matters like this.

I think people are afraid when there is no reason to be. If you lose your job, just get a new one it's not like it's hard in the tech sector anyway.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#387

Post by mikecoles »

iudqnolq wrote: post #385
mikecoles wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's never appropriate to trust someone confirmed to have sexually abused another. There's no debate.

I agree with you. But the C++ community did debate, and ended up deciding to trust him.

I'm baffled. Thank you for the information.

Disclaimer: I did harbor hope Hans Reiser would be found innocent.

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