From my observations rustis are very much about drama. Reminds me also of the drama of Actix web. There’s also a video about it: https://youtu.be/enLUX1TtNyE Better Go :)
Why I Left Rust
381–390 of 880 posts
Re: Why I Left Rust
#382As a non-american I must say I don't understand where the latter half of the article comes from. Why care about race? Why must a racist reason be sought behind everything?
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I can’t open the link, but what words should I use to describe people of different skin color when that is appropriate or necessary?
Re: Why I Left Rust
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed it should not be surprising that the community (leadership) who from the outside seems among the most concerned with codes of conduct, inclusion and so on, is actually not so virtuous at all. I am all for many of the stated goals of "woke" or whatever you want to call them, but it is really reminiscent of the politician who wants to ban porn but has his entire computer filled with it.
What if there are people who need laws, rules, processes to keep something at bay because they are actually suffering from addiction to the very thing they need to regulate. If they believe that thing is wrong and they see how hard it is to resist, they of all people may jump on a bandwagon.
Yes, the "impose my beliefs on everyone" crowd.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#384All of the "social" aspects of programming are full of drama. There isn't a conference where I don't hear about a LGBTQ person not being offended by so and so. Then you have the politics of who gets to set out the true vision or be a chair at this or that committee. If you're serious about programming, you just stay away from both of these. Being a language expert is pretty irrelevant anyway, it's just some ego-boost…
> All of the "social" aspects of programming are full of drama.
Really? Which golang conference canceled an already invited keynote speaker because someone was feeling "uncomfortable"?
How many Python, C, C++, C# related conferences did so?
Genuinely curious, just to establish a baseline.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#385Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…
> And then they pushed them out of the conference behind leadership's back?
My understanding is that they (unilaterally) changed the talk's status from "keynote" to "regular talk", so they didn't quite push them out.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…
I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…
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Re: Why I Left Rust
#387I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…
He is saying there weren't any black speakers. Sure we can say how that should grow "organically", as some other poster did. But what if year in year out it doesn't happen? Maybe there aren't any black people in the Rust community and if they stepped forward with some good talks they would just be invited? Or maybe the situation is a little more complicated.
On the one hand you have your "diversity enforcement policy" which is arguably racist. On the other hand you have black Rust developers but never any black speakers or organization leaders (in a community which doesn't hesitate to toot their diversity horn) which also arguably racist. So what gives?
>Personally, I was with the author until that quote. If I was a member of that organisation I too would not be OK being represented by a person that makes such horribly offensive personal opinions known regardless of their technical expertise.
You could ask yourself why something that someone else might see as a simple (minor) disagreement caused such as strong reaction in you.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it bad of me to say I really just don’t care? If he did the talk. If he did it as a keynote. If someone else is “leaving rust” because of it? It all seems so fabulously irrelevant, I really struggle to understand why: 1) I should care (I don’t, currently) 2) People are coming out of the woodwork to criticise the rust team / foundation whatever when they’re not involved. 3) Why people having emotions (eg. The perso…
You should care because this becomes more and more the reputation of the language and as it pushes more and more talented people away the staying power of the language (and its ability to be "great") begins to diminish. People don't need to be perfect, but if people are going to REPRESENT something (ie the Rust Language) they need to be better than the petty drama that the Rust team has been involved in over the last…
As Rust the technology becomes increasingly important commercially, Rust the community will become more professional one way or another. Large companies want calm and predictable management of their core infrastructure. They have multiple levers, some overt, some less so, for getting it. Rust's leadership will either adopt professional standards of business conduct (as Linus did) or it will be replaced (like W3C was). There's too much riding on Rust now to leave its future up to emotion and chance.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#389Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…
While the language itself looks fine, I find the community a bit off-putting.
First the thing with the code of conduct and all that, that I think distracts from the technical questions. It is important to be inclusive, as not to exclude people who could make valuable contributions, but if it becomes a topic of argument, then it becomes counter-productive.
The second is the "rewrite it in Rust" crowd. I mean, no language is strictly better than another, it is all about tradeoffs. And rewriting a piece of software is not a decision to be taken lightly, see the "second system" anti-pattern. Rust has a place, maybe an important place, but I dislike fanaticism in general.
The first point seems to have died off a little, and most discussions I see about Rust now seem to be technical, which is a good point. And I expect the second point to become a bit less prevalent as the language becomes mainstream and stories about people being miserable with Rust will inevitable surface. I don't think a language can be considered mature unless (some) people start hating using it.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#390Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed it should not be surprising that the community (leadership) who from the outside seems among the most concerned with codes of conduct, inclusion and so on, is actually not so virtuous at all. I am all for many of the stated goals of "woke" or whatever you want to call them, but it is really reminiscent of the politician who wants to ban porn but has his entire computer filled with it.
What if there are people who need laws, rules, processes to keep something at bay because they are actually suffering from addiction to the very thing they need to regulate. If they believe that thing is wrong and they see how hard it is to resist, they of all people may jump on a bandwagon.
Except people who involve themselves in dev communities aren't babies, and this parental impulse of protecting people from ideas YOU think are bad is completely toxic and self defeating.
Being afraid of disagreement is a cancer in our discourse.