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As unions decline, inequality rises

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Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#381

Post by geysersam »

Aunche wrote: post #170
Spooky23 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really need to squint at the sun to conclude that. As money interests have become more politically powerful, it’s harder and harder for employees to organize. You can get fired at Walmart if 4 people are caught talking to each other. It’s easy to rag on unions, but usually that’s a surface complaint ignoring the factors causing it. Even globalization is an example. There’s nothing etched in stone that says we nee…

>Even globalization is an example. There’s nothing etched in stone that says we need to have child labor mining in Africa for rare earth minerals to make iPhones. This is a concern troll. If you really cared about child labor abroad, you would unequivocally support globalization as parents don't want their kids to be slaves and more jobs in these countries gives parents more options. Child labor and slavery is caused…

We have more options than protectionism vs. Laissez faire globalization.

I think the above comment is saying that we can have globalization and sane work conditions simultaneously.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#382

Post by kelseyfrog »

i_am_toaster wrote: post #378
kelseyfrog wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather, it is precisely an empathic explanation. It attempts to find an underlying basis for such an opinion rather than writing it off as unfounded. People with high reactance have an emotional response when compelled to action and this emotional response is what I'm empathizing with. Any reading of my response as judgemental is a perversion of intention and I'd encourage anyone doing so to get curious and assume po…

That is not empathy. That is labeling them based on what you think their perspective is and using that label to reason why you understand their point of view. Characterizing another persons mental reasoning by putting it into some generic box is, by definition, NOT empathy. Edit: I can’t help but feel like I’m being trolled, so this is where the conversation ends.

Please try to put yourself in my shoes and give me the benefit of the doubt.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#383

Post by RhysU »

ben_w wrote: post #379
RhysU wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every so often, someone making 2 or 3 times the national average income makes an ass of themselves on TV by claiming they're economically disadvantaged. Someone making 3X the US national median income is paying roughly the US national median income in federal/state/local taxes. They're paying a median working citizens' earnings in taxes.

And?

How would you feel if someone taxed you an absolute amount that would leave 50% of your countrymen penniless? And they denied you tax breaks, like the child credit, that they grant themselves? And then that same 50% vilified you to boot?

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#384

Post by nec4b »

runarberg wrote: post #346
nec4b wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> This is a silly question, so silly in fact that I suspect it is only intended as reductio ad absurdum (which can be a fallacy if based on a false or inadequate premise). I commend you for knowing logical fallacies. Though it would be even better if you were able to demonstrate those fallacies instead appealing to your own authority. >> A carpenter is entitled to the fruits of their labor, which can adequately be p…

There are plenty of examples of Reductio ad absurdum being a fallacy because of a false or inadequate premise. Zeno’s paradox[1] being a famous one. The false premise being that you can actually add infinite number of times (modern mathematics take the limit as n approaches infinity). Here the prime candidate for the premise being wrong is to equate the work of carpenter working in their own enterprise at a project,…

>> The former gets the fruit of their labor in full when the job is finished and paid for, the latter is suffering from a systematic exploitation as each time the stock goes up in price (or when dividends are issued) the shareholders get the fruits of the worker’s labor, as opposed to the workers them selves.

This is a bit hard to parse. Isn't the developer's work also paid for after each unit of time served. And why exactly is the developer being systematically exploited every time the stock price increases and the carpenter is not if the house appreciates? Doesn't the developer literally live in the fruits of carpenter's labor?

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#385

Post by yucky »

bombolo wrote: post #366
yucky wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> meritocracy isn't a thing One of many examples I can give to disprove this as I'm sitting here watching Croatia & Morocco in the World Cup, is looking at some of the contracts some of these players get from their clubs. Wide disparity and definitely seems to be based on a meritocracy. Taken further, why are none of these fans in the stands, many of whom who also play for fun not equally compensated or even compensa…

> So now that we've established that meritocracy is obviously a real thing We have? Because… a football match was played? What did it prove exactly?

Uh...no. Better players make more money (due to meritocracy). Do you think the better players should make the same as the worst players?

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#386

Post by surement »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I phrase things like this: the lack of real labor power through unions or ideally worker cooperatives leads to bad deals for workers. It would be in the interest of workers to build collective power and demand better compensation or start their own cooperatives to guarantee higher pay and benefits. This has to be said because collective action necessarily requires convincing a lot of people to do it. But either way t…

People who go on about markets pretend that power dynamics and behavioural economics don't exist.

"markets" is just a word that means individuals making economic decisions for themselves

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#387

Post by bombolo »

yucky wrote: post #385
bombolo wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So now that we've established that meritocracy is obviously a real thing We have? Because… a football match was played? What did it prove exactly?

Uh...no. Better players make more money (due to meritocracy). Do you think the better players should make the same as the worst players?

> Better players make more money

Well you define "better players" as "those making more money"… so in the end you are proving your statement via tautology. Which is meaningless.

In any case, even admitting that meritocracy in football works (it probably doesn't)… so what? Most workers aren't professional football players.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#388

Post by bombolo »

logicalmonster wrote: post #78
faitswulff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically you’re being downvoted by the same folks who would benefit from unions. American Twitter employees, for instance, would have done a lot better with European labor protections. European Twitter employees probably have a sizable comeuppance on the horizon.

If the European standards are so good, where are all of the influential European tech companies? To properly weigh all of the tradeoffs, you might consider asking if those Twitter jobs would even emerge in the European system and if there's a link between European labor standards and the lack of influential European tech companies. Europe is a large market that is filled with many capable and educated technology work…

> Why is this?

Because EU is a puppet of USA and doesn't have strong enough protections to stop USA companies to acquire every single startup that exists in EU.

Most of that amazing USA made software is not done in USA. For example some of that is made by me… a guy who has never been in USA.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#389

Post by bombolo »

rejectfinite wrote: post #296
logicalmonster wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the European standards are so good, where are all of the influential European tech companies? To properly weigh all of the tradeoffs, you might consider asking if those Twitter jobs would even emerge in the European system and if there's a link between European labor standards and the lack of influential European tech companies. Europe is a large market that is filled with many capable and educated technology work…

Spotify, Skype, Minecraft, Battlefield, Ericsson, SAAB oh and the Linux kernel. Is your brain broken?

Saab makes mostly weapons. And yes some software here and there.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#390

Post by ben_w »

RhysU wrote: post #383
ben_w wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And?

How would you feel if someone taxed you an absolute amount that would leave 50% of your countrymen penniless? And they denied you tax breaks, like the child credit, that they grant themselves? And then that same 50% vilified you to boot?

I would be absolutely fine, because I was on 3x the national average income.

I would not go onto national television and act like earning way more than anyone else made me a modern suffragette.

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