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Who cares about diversity?

fakenous.substack.com

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#381

Post by colpabar »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #322
colpabar wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope! The bare minimum we could do is start getting mad about how rich the rich are, and stop fighting among ourselves . Diversity is a tool used by the rich to keep us from uniting against them, and sadly it is really effective.

How come every time systemic or structural racism is brought up, the discussion instantly pivots to it being "divisive" and the real battle being class consciousness or something.

> class consciousness or something

Because I don't think the corporations and institutions that made society the way it is can buy their way out of it by claiming to be "diverse". If we want change, we have to demand it from the people who control society, and guess what? That is not you or me, it's the people with all of the money and all of the land.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#382

Post by [deleted] »

HideousKojima wrote: post #348
_312m wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> willful ignorance I think it's just plain old fashioned ignorance, right? Dunno, to me this just looks like kids who were excited to see a musical starring someone who looked like them for once, and were understandably upset when that didn't happen. Looks like the students were targeted by alt-right publications for that, too: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/theater/hunchback-of-notr...

>I think it's just plain old fashioned ignorance, right? Pushing to get a play cancelled (and succeeding!) over a misunderstanding that can be resolved by a 30 second googling is in fact willful ignorance. >Dunno, to me this just looks like kids who were excited to see a musical starring someone who looked like them, and were understandably upset when that didn't happen. They started a months-long letter writing and…

[deleted]

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#383

Post by michaelwww »

kbelder wrote: post #354
michaelwww wrote: post #325

I care about diversity because different cultures bring different ideas and skills to the situation. When I get in a jam, I don't want just one idea for getting out of it, I want many.

Can you detail what you mean by 'cultures'?

I can do better. I can recommend the works of Edward T. Hall. Several of his discoveries about how Native Americans view time have been helpful to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_T._Hall

https://nobaproject.com/modules/time-and-culture

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#384

Post by petilon »

koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

> I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so.

Good. But in the end, if you end up with an all-male team then questions will be asked, and rightly so.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#385

Post by rcoveson »

petilon wrote: post #384
koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

> I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Good. But in the end, if you end up with an all-male team then questions will be asked, and rightly so.

Given eight person teams, one in ten will have no women on it purely by chance, given that only a quarter of software engineers in the US are women. Questions may be asked, but I hope the questioners listen to reason.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#386

Post by eweise »

petilon wrote: post #317
3qz wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true but it’s not what they actually mean when they say “diversity” so all of this should be left out of the essay.

Not true. Take University of Washington for example. They ask for a "diversity essay". They define diversity as "diverse in cultural backgrounds, experiences, values and viewpoints." [1] [1] https://admit.washington.edu/apply/freshman/how-to-apply/wri...

Yep they do. Wonder what the chances are for someone writing about their conservative viewpoint as opposed to the applicant writing about their struggles growing up in a racially segregated neighborhood?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#387

Post by handoflixue »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #261
tptacek wrote: post #89

The whole blog is like this; it's all sort of comically smug "everybody else in the entire world is wrong, and here is a 7-point axiomatic derivation proving it"†, much of it depending on specific definitions of specific words. Check-mate, atheists! There are lots of good, sharp, critical things to say about the DEI movement, most especially "institutional" DEI, but you can't meaningfully say them when you write with…

I genuinely find this criticism of yours to be almost-inexcusably vapid in its own right. You're criticizing tone, not content. And your bolded, italicized dagger-marked point doesn't make sense to me without context. Other than style and tone, what is your issue with the content of this writer's position? What are your suggestions for how it could be amended?

The whole article can be summed up as: "Colleges claim they care about Diversity, but one definition of Diversity is X, and we can trivially prove colleges don't care about X. QED colleges don't care about Diversity."

It should not take a particularly sharp mind to identify the fallacy here: There are definitions other than X. Therefore the conclusion of the article is completely fallacious: we've only established that people aren't using definition X, not that they don't care about Diversity.

From any sort of intellectually engaged opponent, I would expect some attempt to try and work out "therefore, colleges must have some definition Y that they actually care about" and an understanding that words can have multiple definitions.

---

In places, the article doesn't even bother to check if it's debunking of X is actually accurate, either: it should be obvious to anyone who looks that quite a few colleges actually do care about socio-economic diversity (Point 2.5 in the article), and make a point of extending extra support to ensure at least a few poor students can attend. We have visa programs specifically designed to allow students from other countries (Point 2.3).

Maybe it's not an explicit "Affirmative Action" program, but it should be obvious that colleges do care about these things. Yet the author insists "Of course, none of the above predictions are borne out" and "Conclusion: By and large, they don’t care about diversity. They’re just lying"

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#388

Post by whyoh »

onos wrote: post #95
duxup wrote: post #3

How wide spread is this requirement? I've never heard about it before. >schools are requiring “Diversity Statements” as a condition for new hires Is this like when you do a self performance review and you just throw in a bunch of common phrases / text?

I can’t answer on stats, would also like to know. I’ve read Berkeley requires these for all faculty openings and promotions. Also below is a particularly egregious example from Canada, where it explicitly states white straight men need not apply. https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317

>Also below is a particularly egregious example from Canada, where it explicitly states white straight men need not apply.

Is such discrimination therefore legal in Canada? I don't think it's legal in the US (https://www.eeoc.gov/racecolor-discrimination).

edit: It looks like it might be legal in Canada: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-5.401/page-1.html

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#389

Post by kelseyfrog »

belorn wrote: post #375
kelseyfrog wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general the argument template is "If you're not 100% committed to realizing a more extreme version of your mission statement than the status quo, then you're being hypocritical and cannot be taken seriously." We see the same thing pop up in, "You don't like capitalism, yet you still participate in it," and "You don't like cars, yet you still drive places." It's the sort of tired teenager type argument that doesn't…

Sweden had an election yesterday, and I can't think of a single political subject where political opponents do not accuse the other side of being insincere. Environment, taxes, law and order, immigration, education, healthcare, elder care... "You say you want X, yet you still say/do/vote Y" would match the intended message in about 95% of every statement being made when a politician is describing an other politician…

At the very least giving a name to the phenomena (and logical fallacy experts, please chime in) gives people the power to identify and categorize such arguments as not being worthwhile pursuits and can castrate their power.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#390

Post by green_on_black »

koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

I was at a a highprofile tech company that everyone on HN knows about. Since I highly dislike bullshit, I straightup asked the hiring manager "does this mean the technical bar is lower for diversity?" Answer: "Yes."

Now, there is some possible justification, in the sense that diversity may bring value to the team. After all, hires are holistic (communication skills, etc.). Especially if diversity of {race, sexuality, gender, etc} meant a diversity of ideas. But without evidence for this (please correct me as needed), and with seemingly less-than-well-justified reasons, it was quite upsetting to me. Something to think about: if we value diversity of ideas, why not value diversity of religion? Beyond the fact that it's a legally protected class, of course (i.e. ethics/value prop, not legality). Or would that somehow be less than ideal?

As an Asian, I feel the issue of "reverse" affirmative action well.

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