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All poverty is energy poverty

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Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#381

Post by macinjosh »

UmbertoNoEco wrote: post #241
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure "collective intelligence" gives the right feel. We have the intelligence, we're just organised by a few people who have power directing labour towards making those few people even more insanely rich, whilst many people continue without direction and a larger few attempt to direct resources towards the benefit of the majority. Maybe intelligence is about organisation (of neurons) but still, organisation t…

but we dont have the intelligence even this site filled with supposedly smart educated individuals is filled to the brim with prejudices; jingoism; hate; intolerance; short-term thinking and huge cognitive blind spots

No post body was provided.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#382

Post by ericd »

bluetomcat wrote: post #250
goatlover wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the better alternative?

A better alternative would be to have localised production and localised consumption of food and most basic goods. Stuff like not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea. People should feel more attached to their birthplace and the goal should be to develop their skills locally with one company preferably. Strong bonds wi…

God, I’m glad I wasn’t born in the designated car production region, what a horrible thing to be forced to devote my life to.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#383

Post by towaway15463 »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #209
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do have the energy. The US spends enough energy on transportation that the entire world could have refrigeration. The US spends 28% of total energy consumption on transportation. 93.33 Quadrillion BTUs x .28 / 3142 (BTUs per kWh) / 365 (days per year) = 22.8B kWh per day. BEV vehicles are 5x more efficient than ICE vehicles. We could have the same standard of living and just not use gas-powered vehicles and save ~…

When you're that poor do you need a fridge, or do you 'just' need access to a fridge? It's a massive waste if you're living on such a little and you literally only need to keep a handful of things cool. I wonder if you can have a community fridge with different sized compartments so you can pay for access to the amount of space you need; to me those is like using a launderette rather than paying for a washing machine…

You’re thinking too far down the line. The article mentions this but its worth repeating: even the people producing and selling food don’t have access to refrigeration so a lot of the food they have spoils and goes to waste. That’s the first thing that needs to change. After that better roads and transport networks would help even more. Those things can at least get them out of food poverty and will also have second order effects that will increase economic output and put more money into people’s pockets.

Household appliances come much later after you’ve established a working economy and infrastructure.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#384

Post by ericd »

rglullis wrote: post #339
michaelmrose wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An amish village is a laughable anachronism that only exist in the context of a much larger whole that is antithetical to the very values and way of life it practices because no larger scale society so constructed could exist or compete with other societies practicing opposing values. It's not a healthier better way to build a city its a tiny park on a corner lot surrounded by pollution and traffic.

First: yes, it is healthier for those living inside the park, compared to the alternative. Second: the point is not to build "a larger scale" version of those societies, but actually to replicate the idea of localism in many different places. Less EU and one-world government and more independent nation-states, if you will. Third: you can oppose the lifestyle and philosophy all you want, but it still is not slavery.

Can it survive against a larger-scale opponent that wants to take its resources, though? Without a friendly superpower enforcing peace with an extraordinarily powerful military, that is.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#385

Post by UmbertoNoEco »

macinjosh wrote: post #381
UmbertoNoEco wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but we dont have the intelligence even this site filled with supposedly smart educated individuals is filled to the brim with prejudices; jingoism; hate; intolerance; short-term thinking and huge cognitive blind spots

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#386

Post by analognoise »

rglullis wrote: post #305
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea These isolated communities exist. Their quality of life is lower. But anyone can join them. From hippie communes to Amish communities, Luddism has a long tradition in modern society. (I’m ignoring the ethno-racial undertone in implying there can be an objective arbiter of what…

The point is not in absolute isolation, but trading away some optimization in global economic output for increased self-resiliency. Yes, overall we would be poorer on average, but we would a lot less likely to see catastrophic events and a bit more equity among members of the same community.

"Yes, overall we would be poorer on average"

You first.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#387

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

towaway15463 wrote: post #383
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're that poor do you need a fridge, or do you 'just' need access to a fridge? It's a massive waste if you're living on such a little and you literally only need to keep a handful of things cool. I wonder if you can have a community fridge with different sized compartments so you can pay for access to the amount of space you need; to me those is like using a launderette rather than paying for a washing machine…

You’re thinking too far down the line. The article mentions this but its worth repeating: even the people producing and selling food don’t have access to refrigeration so a lot of the food they have spoils and goes to waste. That’s the first thing that needs to change. After that better roads and transport networks would help even more. Those things can at least get them out of food poverty and will also have second…

Is it economically possible to make these investments?

Something makes me think when you're this poor - investing in better roads isn't viable.

For one, wouldn't rail be way more efficient?

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#389

Post by TaXaZ »

bluetomcat wrote: post #163
ciconia wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interesting to see the comment thread digging into all sorts of criticism of the article (is it 2 kWh / fridge? Or 1.1? Should the author discuss renewable?) Hear hear. The point is, for those of us living in developed countries, is that all wealth is energy wealth. The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy. When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game…

> When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries. Western society is inefficient at a macro level, even though it may seem efficient from the financial perspective of a single company or an individual. People cover huge distances to work. Companies are moving goods, components and people from all over the world. People change jobs (losing focus) and their residen…

Ha? This is even dangerous! You're basically yearning for an authoritarian regime. With simplistic argument and some false assumptions you conclude it's more efficient bcz it does not waste basically trial/error. However, this has been proven times after time that such "alternative political philosophy" will defeat its purpose and become highly corrupt. Furthermore, we're in a incomplete information game, evolution is a must, and you can not 'design' things apriori.

Western societies, at least when it comes to political philosophy, are far more efficient than their eastern counterparts if you meant it.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#390

Post by issa »

zanny wrote: post #137
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do have the energy. The US spends enough energy on transportation that the entire world could have refrigeration. The US spends 28% of total energy consumption on transportation. 93.33 Quadrillion BTUs x .28 / 3142 (BTUs per kWh) / 365 (days per year) = 22.8B kWh per day. BEV vehicles are 5x more efficient than ICE vehicles. We could have the same standard of living and just not use gas-powered vehicles and save ~…

What is more efficient than all the cars is electrified rail. That is an order of magnitude more energy efficient, more if you can manage to get near capacity high frequency trains. A lot of our energy expenditure is lifestyle satisfying. Asia and the better cities in Europe demonstrate you can build dense cities with excellent transit as an alternative to car dependency, but the US fairly universally rejects it from…

People always forget that it isn't a question of leaving American cities as-is and expecting everyone to give up cars. The solution starts with building walkable cities that have public transportation.
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