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Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

spiegel.de

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Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#381

Post by adrianN »

q1w2 wrote: post #339
sorenjan wrote: post #241

Frankly, I think it's embarrassing that such a large part of Europe is still so dependent on natural gas. It's being portrayed as a problem now due to economics, but global warming and making yourself dependent on authoritarian regimes has been an issue for much longer than that. The switch should have happened much sooner, but I guess the money was always more important and Russian gas was cheap enough to forget abo…

Because they are morons and shut down their nuclear plants and bet everything on Russian gas and renewables that aren't even designed to provide baseload. They absolutely should have seen this coming.

If Germany kept its nuclear plants it would still be almost as dependent on Russian gas as it is today. Homes aren't heated with nuclear power, they're heated with gas. Industrial processes don't run on nuclear power either, they run on gas. Germany doesn't produce a lot of its electricity with gas turbines.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#382

Post by origin_path »

DeWilde wrote: post #229
TuringNYC wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Question is will Russia then attempt to hurt Europe by blocking gas deliveries like it is doing now with Nord Stream 1. Sorry for the naive question, but are the Nord Stream gas deliveries: 1. blocked because sanctions dont allow for commerce/transactions, or 2. blocked to hurt the customer (Europe) by not transacting even when transacting is possible?

Currently NS1 is blocked under the excuse of repairs. Now that could be true, but it could also be a showcase from Russia of what it can inflict. So yeah, option 2 it is.

The repairs are standard, planned in advance and happen every year. No gas is actually blocked. The articles stressing about the pipeline are all based on pure speculation about whether it won't come back, but there's no actual evidence that will happen. It's just what-if scenarios.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#383

Post by user_of_the_wek »

bonzini wrote: post #280
theplumber wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey may start acting lunatic as well.

Sure but Norway is the only EU state that has a decent amount of gas or oil, and at least Turkey is on the NATO side. Politically it's messy, but at least militarily it's fine.

Norway is not a member of the EU.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#384

Post by polotics »

oxff wrote: post #98
polotics wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

moralistic foreign policy as in not paying a country that sent its goons rape children? also putin said, lavrov said: we won't invade...

It is moralistic because moral hysteria ("goons raping children") is driving the fate of the entire trade block right now, your post was a perfect example. Poor, lights out EU with 10-20% inflation will not in fact be a 'strong against Russia' or whatever (and this is without EU being in a war of any kind, lmao)

pray tell what is about the quotes? do you claim that the very well documented exactions by russian troops are fabricated by the west? Lavrov also did, but then he refused the setup of any independent inquiry therefore in my humnle opinion admitting responsibility for these crimes.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#385

Post by dpratt »

theplumber wrote: post #218
1234letshaveatw wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my god- the EU redistributed tax revenue from member countries to fund 100% of home improvements in Italy? I can't even imagine.

What's so wrong helping a neighbour? That reduces the energy costs for everyone around the world not only Italy.

You’re not “helping a neighbor” - this analogy is flawed. It’d be more correct to say “a third party with incentives that are entirely unrelated to the matter showed up at my home, placed a gun to my head and demanded I transfer a third of my checking account to him. He then took this money and used it to curry favor from another party by distributing it to his friends to do some repairs and improvements on the home of yet another person in the hopes that said person would support the same thing happening to the next guy.”

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#386

Post by _kbh_ »

mythrwy wrote: post #380
btilly wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so ridiculous that you can read https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/documents/ARIS_LittleGreenMen... for an unclassified report from the US government about Russia's disinformation campaign and the Russian special forces with no insignia who showed up and got the nickname "little green men". You can read https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/193514/Nuclear%20Backed%20%E2%... for a Polish report on the same, and how Russia u…

There are no breakaway republics? The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia? All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were happy with the post coup Ukrainian government? Is that what you are saying? If not, what exactly of my point do you take issue with? The claims on Russia geo strategical intent? The history of invasions into Russia through Ukraine in fairly recent times? That Cr…

> There are no breakaway republics?.

There are Russian backed terrorists that are temporarily occupying Ukrainian territory, these terrorists shot down a civilian airliner and killed hundreds.

> The majority of people in Crimea did not wish to rejoin Russia?

Theres no been no real referendums so we will never, but the partisan posters that keep appearing in Crimea would suggest that no the majority dont want to join Russia.

> All people on what is (formerly now) Ukraine territory were happy with the post coup Ukrainian government? Is that what you are saying?

All the people on occupied Ukrainian territory may not be happy with the government they may also not be happy be conscripted by the FSB backed terrorist occupiers either to fight against their brothers. But it doesn't matter because not everyone needs to support a government for it to be legitimate.

> These are all facts my friend. Not propaganda.

None of these are facts.

> I wish you would take a more rational and less emotional view of the situation but I can't say I'd do differently in your circumstance. I am concerned where the irrationality leads however. It has so far caused nothing but trouble for Ukraine. And the trouble is spreading.

The most rational view of this situation is to send the heaviest weapons possible to Ukraine, because the only rational way this ends is with a lot of dead Russian soldiers, and that needs to happen as soon as possible.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#387

Post by tomputer »

adrianN wrote: post #381
q1w2 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are morons and shut down their nuclear plants and bet everything on Russian gas and renewables that aren't even designed to provide baseload. They absolutely should have seen this coming.

If Germany kept its nuclear plants it would still be almost as dependent on Russian gas as it is today. Homes aren't heated with nuclear power, they're heated with gas. Industrial processes don't run on nuclear power either, they run on gas. Germany doesn't produce a lot of its electricity with gas turbines.

> Homes aren't heated with nuclear power, they're heated with gas. Industrial processes don't run on nuclear power either, they run on gas.

I'm glad that there are still people who understand this. In the Netherlands 90% of the homes[1] still run on natural gas and that's not something we can "simply" replace. It is possible and will eventually happen but it will take years if not decades.

And that's just homes in the Netherlands. Take a look at the global energy mix[2] how much the world still depends on gas.

[1] https://www-cbs-nl.translate.goog/nl-nl/nieuws/2021/07/92-pr...

[2] https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#388

Post by tim333 »

nisa wrote: post #18

To get some perspective why this is such a hotly debated topic - just got my heating bill for the last year - just a small 2 person flat in a small town - most flats in Germany are heated by gas one way or another - 700€/year with 5.2ct/kWh for 2021 - current market is more like 15ct/kWh and will probably rise. With the rise in rent prices in the last years this could push quite a bit of poor / lower middle class peo…

In terms of fighting Russia we probably get more bang for the buck by sending more rockets rather than cutting the gas. At the moment Russia shows no sign of running out of cash but is having issues with all their ammo stores exploding.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#389

Post by grapeskin »

OOD wrote: post #194
grapeskin wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are now in an energy checkmate situation with a hostile country with an economy the size of Italy. I think looking at national threats by their GDP is kind of weird. Afghanistan led to the downfall of the USSR but had basically nothing going for it economically. The US also blew decades of effort and money. ISIS plowed through its region with sheer mongol-like savagery and managed to wreak havoc in major weste…

>America went basically all out trying to stop Vietnam, then one of the poorest countries on earth, and got nowhere. This is ahistorical. The US in no way, shape, or form when "all out" trying to stop North Vietnam. It was a poor country, but it was heavily armed and resupplied by the USSR and China, including leveraging some of the newest fighter jets, SAMs, etc. the USSR had to offer.

They burned the entirety of the country to the ground. Vietnam's neighbors were absolutely destroyed by the US. Laos is the most bombed country in world history due to the US trying to stop Vietnam.

What would be considered "all out" if not dropping the most bombs in human history, and double the amount of WW2? There is no higher level.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#390

Post by londons_explore »

bilsbie wrote: post #366
londons_explore wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: Nearly all gas turbine power stations can also run on oil. Oil is usually a backup method in case the gas supply is disrupted, but it is possible for them to run on oil continuously. The exact oil type required differs, but some can use Diesel/Petrol/Kerosene/ethanol/hydrogen or sometimes even unrefined crude oil. With gas prices so high, many are already running on oil, and that's part of the reason Diesel…

I wonder if they could run on wood gas.

Probably. The 1300C burn temperature ought to even make it quite clean.

I would guess the main limiting factor will be that these machines cost tens of millions of dollars, and even with a small probability of the wood gas damaging the machine, the owner will say no to any experimentation.

Having said that, the manufacturers do tend to like to add extra things to the spec sheets of their turbines, so might well support trials of such things.

It's obviously gonna be needing extra infrastructure for heated feed pipes (to keep the wood gas from condensing) and high temperature valves, filters, and flow meters. You might be needing gas composition sensors and a feedback system to deal with the fact wood gas can be pretty variable in its composition.

I would imagine you might also tap off some of the post-combustion hot gasses from before (or even after) the turbine to act as thermal input to your gasifier too. That wouldn't be strictly necessary, but should improve efficiency.

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