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BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

motor1.com

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Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#381

Post by horsawlarway »

shard wrote: post #349
horsawlarway wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm going to jump on you here because this line is wrong, in this case. > Renting stuff is economically efficient as long as you don't let the actual owners abuse the relationship to their benefit. Renting is economically efficient when there is a limited supply of the item, and renting allows the item to be used more often & efficiently then it would with if it were owned. A simple example: It is much more effici…

I think the assumption in the case you are presenting is that efficiency is viewed from the POV of the use of resources aggregated over the whole society. There are other POVs, such as it being more cost or production speed or resource or factory floor space efficient for BMW or their suppliers to maintain one product line as opposed to two, or it being more cost efficient for owners to have the option to turn on the…

To be clear - all of the items you've listed would probably fall into the "owner is abusing the renter" category.

I'm becoming more and more hostile to "we've sold you product that has a little man inside who only obeys us" style approach, and to tackle your software example - I find it just as hostile there (I actually refuse to purchase Apple products because you absolutely do not own any device you've purchased from them).

I'll pay for a subscription service that has a genuine recurring cost for the company (ex: I'm using their networks and servers to process data as part of that subscription). But this new world where companies try to make you pay a subscription to get access to static content (or in this case: literal hardware) that lives nowhere except on devices you own is not something I find morally or ethically acceptable.

Frankly - my strong opinion at this point is: If I own a device, I legally must be provided with a key to EVERY lock the device has: physical or digital. No more "you own the phone, but we kept the keys" or in this exact case: "you own the seat heater, but we kept the on/off switch"

Would you think it's acceptable to have BMW stop providing you the ignition and door keys? "Just call us up and we'll unlock the car! (for a small subscription charge)" fuck that horseshit. That's no ownership, that's servitude.

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#382

Post by mnkmnk »

dexterdog wrote: post #71
senectus1 wrote: post #66

so you buy the car, fully equipped with the heat seating... but you can't turn it on unless you pay a subscription fee? I had to double check this wasn't an Onion article. thats one of the most dumbest brand burning idea's I've ever seen. I'm happy enough with my Mid range Rav4 Hybrid that comes with seat heaters and no subscription fee thanks...

It's not a terrible idea for a lot of stuff. It's much more economical to add many features on all vehicles than to package them. Then you can individual menu out the items to the people who want them.

If it is economical, the benefits must be passed on to the consumers. Maybe luxury cars have become commoditised and BMW can’t think of any new innovative thing to charge for so this is what they do.

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#383

Post by mechanical_bear »

t0mas88 wrote: post #234
wil421 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low profile tires do not last 50k much less 85k miles. Lots of BMW tires are front/rear and left/right which means you can’t rotate. People on the X7 forms said they had to start changing tires around 20-25k. My coworker had a Leaf and said he went through rear tires 2x as fast.

This. For example a BMW 550i eats rear tires under heavy acceleration and front tires under sporty cornering, because it's not a light weight car. Worse for low-profile and sporty tires, better grip but softer rubber. A BMW 550i has similar horse power as a Tesla Model 3 performance, but I think like any EV the Tesla delivers even more low-end torque. So it can kill tires even faster, and it's all-wheel-drive...

Similar HP…but not Torque. :-)

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#384

Post by shard »

horsawlarway wrote: post #381
shard wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the assumption in the case you are presenting is that efficiency is viewed from the POV of the use of resources aggregated over the whole society. There are other POVs, such as it being more cost or production speed or resource or factory floor space efficient for BMW or their suppliers to maintain one product line as opposed to two, or it being more cost efficient for owners to have the option to turn on the…

To be clear - all of the items you've listed would probably fall into the "owner is abusing the renter" category. I'm becoming more and more hostile to "we've sold you product that has a little man inside who only obeys us" style approach, and to tackle your software example - I find it just as hostile there (I actually refuse to purchase Apple products because you absolutely do not own any device you've purchased fr…

Maybe coming from the chip design world, this is a bit more commonplace and normal-seeming for me. I'm used to huge software packages which cost 5 to 6 figures to license, and additional features which are enabled and disabled based on a license file. No live content (aside from bug fixes). A new version with upgraded features would be another license. I've been out of chip design for a while, so things might be different now.

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#385

Post by panick21_ »

tomc1985 wrote: post #280
panick21_ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are rapidly moving towards Feudalism. I hate when people say that. This has literally nothing to do with the historic institution of feudalism. Its is the opposite of actually educating people on actual feudalism. Its just using historical terms that people call not to be 'bad' so you don't actually have to explain the problem. We are literally talking about people who can buy a BMW. Did BMW promise them heated…

Sounds like someone is trying to morally justify their success off the back of those sweet, sweet subscription revenues. Heated seats is a luxury, sure. But what about music? Kitchen appliances? Movies and TV? Productivity software? Transportation? All these things are things we own much less of (or "own," as it were, since we got to keep physical custody of the bits, and they didn't try to authenticate against a web…

> Sounds like someone is trying to morally justify their success off the back of those sweet, sweet subscription revenues.

I implied nothing about myself. I myself did not go to university.

> Heated seats is a luxury, sure. But what about music? Kitchen appliances? Movies and TV? Productivity software? Transportation?

Subscription is just one way to pay for things, sometimes it makes sense sometimes it doesn't. Public transport have been using subscription for decades and people somehow don't think that's a bad thing.

For cars people usually use loans, and that ends up being just another form of monthly payment.

They have advantages and disadvantages depending on many factors. To have moral outrage because something in particular uses subscription makes no sense.

The waste majority of the things you named the waste majority of the time don't need subscription. And the reality is that while you don't need a subscription for music for example, people do actually prefer it in some cases and that is fine.

> people are sharecropping increasingly large parts of their lives

Comparing digital goods to land ownership is a terrible analogy.

> And the lords sit in their castles, surrounded by yes-men

You have a real flair for storytelling, next you will add some more fantasy element and you will tell me they have 'greedy grins' or whatever. Makes for good drama I guess.

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#387

Post by rexf »

N19PEDL2 wrote: post #43
kabes wrote: post #40

As long as it stays an additional option next to permanent buying it I don't see the problem. Maybe I didn't care for heated seats zt time of purchase, but suddenly it's a very cold winter and I want it for a couple of months. Or someone wants to buy my car, but really wants heated seats can now do so.

As per my understanding, you already paid for the heated seats when you bought the car, as they are already installed on board. What you are required to do is to pay a monthly fee in order to use something you already own.

They are not requiring you to pay a monthly fee. The feature is available as a $18 monthly fee OR a 1 time $406 fee.

[TFA](https://www.motor1.com/news/597376/bmw-heated-seats-subscrip...) says:

> Should you want the feature permanently, that'll set you back $406.

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#388

Post by t0mas88 »

mechanical_bear wrote: post #383
t0mas88 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. For example a BMW 550i eats rear tires under heavy acceleration and front tires under sporty cornering, because it's not a light weight car. Worse for low-profile and sporty tires, better grip but softer rubber. A BMW 550i has similar horse power as a Tesla Model 3 performance, but I think like any EV the Tesla delivers even more low-end torque. So it can kill tires even faster, and it's all-wheel-drive...

Similar HP…but not Torque. :-)

That's what I said :-) but now I've Googled it and it isn't really true they're both around the 600 Nm range. But I think the delivery is still different, EVs deliver peak torque directly from standstill, which is the worst option for the tires.

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#389

Post by ZeroGravitas »

horsawlarway wrote: post #381
shard wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the assumption in the case you are presenting is that efficiency is viewed from the POV of the use of resources aggregated over the whole society. There are other POVs, such as it being more cost or production speed or resource or factory floor space efficient for BMW or their suppliers to maintain one product line as opposed to two, or it being more cost efficient for owners to have the option to turn on the…

To be clear - all of the items you've listed would probably fall into the "owner is abusing the renter" category. I'm becoming more and more hostile to "we've sold you product that has a little man inside who only obeys us" style approach, and to tackle your software example - I find it just as hostile there (I actually refuse to purchase Apple products because you absolutely do not own any device you've purchased fr…

Economics talked a lot about lighthouses historically, because they were the kind of thing that you couldnt stop people using once you'd built it. This meant there were less built than society might want. Solutions involve finding a way to make people pay and taxes are one such tool, either just general tax or taxing imports or something related to shipping.

Open source software is similar. I agree that its better for society, but there are two ways to achieve that. The bottom up approach of making it a better option (sometime with the extra stick/carrot of copyleft) or the top down approach, just mandate that any government bought software or any open standard need to be open source and usable by all since they all paid for it.

You can apply those same solutions to hardware and physical things, e.g. renters of housing often have various legal protections, but it varies by jurisdiction, you also have social housing where its lived in but not owned and the property value rises go back to the government.

Re: BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

#390

Post by dangus »

juve1996 wrote: post #317
dangus wrote: post #276

Unpopular opinion: this could be a consumer benefit, although BMW doesn’t seem to quite have the value proposition exactly where I’d like it to be. It’s cheaper to build fewer SKUs and variations of a product. The fact that the assembly line never has to change what they’re installing in the car could make heated seats cheaper in the first place. BMW currently charges $500 for heated seats a la carte in the US, so th…

Yea, you can't use it in the summer and save those months. But what if BMW says "the costs went up, subscription price must raise." Now in 3 years it's $25 a month. This is the path. Companies exist for profit. They will only make customers as happy as they need to.

It's true that they've always existed for a profit. BMW doesn't operate in a bubble and has a wide selection of competitors, so if their pricing and terms are too unreasonable, customers will go elsewhere.

I think these connected services are aimed at lessees who are the bread and butter of BMW's business. Someone leasing this car would actually save money by "renting" the heated seats, next owner be damned.

Still, I'm definitely not trying to say that this is a wonderful, wonderful thing. But, considering that a "lifetime" purchase option still exists, I think this represents example of giving customers more options than they previously had.

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