Kids are far behind in school • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#381

Post by ryanklee » Tue, May 24, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

mattcwilson wrote: post #377

ryanklee wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evaluation of the quality of the decision should be made by taking into account the constraints and quality of priors that were inputs into the decision. Outcomes are probabilistic. Using results as the evaluation metric is mistake. We did not know how the pandemic was interacting with children and the school system. But we did know that it had deathly, chaotic, fast moving properties. The worst case outcome was…

Nonsense. Yes, at the very earliest part of the pandemic, we had no data. We had to prepare for the worst. Very quickly, we started to see the relative impact of different measures taken in different jurisdictions, we learned about the relative impact of the disease on different age groups and populations, and we started having tools and strategies for detecting, tracing, and inhibiting the disease. These became the…

Not going to reply other than to say characterizing my comment as nonsense is unfairly dismissive.

Be a kind interlocutor if you want dispassionate, reasoned engagement.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#382

Post by mattcwilson » Tue, May 24, 2022, 8:12 PM UTC

ryanklee wrote: post #381

mattcwilson wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Yes, at the very earliest part of the pandemic, we had no data. We had to prepare for the worst. Very quickly, we started to see the relative impact of different measures taken in different jurisdictions, we learned about the relative impact of the disease on different age groups and populations, and we started having tools and strategies for detecting, tracing, and inhibiting the disease. These became the…

Not going to reply other than to say characterizing my comment as nonsense is unfairly dismissive. Be a kind interlocutor if you want dispassionate, reasoned engagement.

Sure, I respect that. If it seems like I don’t think you’re a good person, my apologies. I am enjoying having this debate with you and wish you the best.

But I stand by the assertion that your previous comment does not make sense.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#383

Post by mattcwilson » Tue, May 24, 2022, 8:15 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #378

mattcwilson wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and twelve or more months after that, many schools were still fully virtual. What’s your point?

That the data was ignored (by everyone!) months latter is a very different point.

Rereading the thread, perhaps we’re both agreeing with each other? The data wasn’t there at the start, was there three months later, and that’s when updated decision making could occur?

I think I mistook you as agreeing with the GP that we had no chance to improve the outcome with the info at hand.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#384

Post by oneoff786 » Tue, May 24, 2022, 11:25 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #319

xorcist wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you say makes sense as "don't visit the elderly". Not as "don't visit school".

That's not how contagion works.

Endemic contagion works even more differently rendering the whole thing rather moot

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#385

Post by em-bee » Wed, May 25, 2022, 2:50 AM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #350

em-bee wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if they have no means to support them then they will. and as a result you traumatize everyone in that family for life. So because they aren't receiving any financial assistance for shelter, food, and clothing then they will rely on having a partner. We have now incentivized that type of behavior. no, you haven't. how do you think this works? all you are doing is forcing people to stay in relationships that are no…

I think all your ideas are great and I’d be all for them if they weren’t just completely unrealistic and ineffective. I grew up around those environments and was immersed in them. My experience as well as analyzing what we have done to “fix it” have led me to believe that a radical breaking of the wheel is necessary. And not only necessary but moral. It’s time to put kids first.

It’s time to put kids first.

this is where i have a problem. taking away kids from their parents is not putting kids first. unless the parents are outright abusive, in which case there are already mechanisms in place. what you are suggesting is not helpful.

we do not need better individual academic performance but we need better relationships, so that people care more for each other and we can build stronger communities that can work together to improve everyones lives.

taking away children from their parents hurts the ability of those children (and of the parents too) to make friends and form trusting relationships. which in the long term hurts the very fabric of society. already individualism is very strong, and it's becoming a problem.

only as a united community can we solve our problems and build a better future.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#386

Post by croon » Wed, May 25, 2022, 7:19 AM UTC

mattcwilson wrote: post #376

croon wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merriam Webster [0] disagrees with your limiting definition (while etymologically correct). And even if it hadn't, it doesn't affect the coherence of the argument. > We can definitely talk about what sets of choices would have had better outcomes. Sure, and again, after the fact. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dilemma

Handwringing cowardice and whimpering inaction got people killed in this pandemic. Refusing to take action as soon as data were available to justify better methods got people killed. (Thanks for the link, btw. Had no idea “dildo” dates to the 16th century. The things you learn...)

> Handwringing cowardice and whimpering inaction got people killed in this pandemic.

That I have no idea if you would have wanted more lockdown or less lockdown or more masks or less masks, etc, etc, should indicate the difficulty in decision making.

But for the record, I'm not defending any decisions made by any government, I'm merely defending the difficulty of the process, and they will be dragged for any decision they make regardless because, again, there is no win scenario in a pandemic.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#387

Post by culopatin » Wed, May 25, 2022, 11:09 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #293

andreilys wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, what are you learning between kindergarten and 2nd grade that's so important? I remember my time there being effectively day-care, I learned more outside of class than inside it. The only real benefit was socializing with kids my age but otherwise everything I learned in those 2 years could've been taught in a week.

This is when most kids learn to read. Some kids have basic reading skills before kindergarten, and some learn after 2nd grade. But for most, this is the time when they go from being able to recognize a handful/bunch of words to being able to figure out new words, understand exceptions, and learn about grammar. There's also a decent amount of conceptual math taught in these grades. I wouldn't say that the concepts are…

At 6? The US is behind regardless then. I remember landing in first grade and we all knew how to read already from kindergarten. 1st grade was all about math, learning cursive (which honestly is not that helpful either) and basic life stuff like sending a letter and how the world around us works. My country is shit overall so I’m not bragging, but if my corruption ridden country could make that happen (even if in small pockets) then the us should have the power to make it happen broadly. Only if they listened to the teachers that go in it for the love of it and not the old useless people that manage the system for their profit or stubbornness.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#388

Post by culopatin » Wed, May 25, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

sodality2 wrote: post #252

andreilys wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, what are you learning between kindergarten and 2nd grade that's so important? I remember my time there being effectively day-care, I learned more outside of class than inside it. The only real benefit was socializing with kids my age but otherwise everything I learned in those 2 years could've been taught in a week.

It's not just those grades; I see the same in high school. To a lesser extent, but a lot of the classes that are non-advanced are, here's a 5 question quiz and 15 minutes of content every week, turn it in whenever.

I went to a technical high school with (apparently) one of the toughest curriculums in my city (non US). You know what I found unique? That I didn’t know my curriculum was tough. I just thought that’s the way it was for everyone and went for it. Once we got older and started going out and making friends from other schools is when we realized that no one else was learning calc 1 at 15. The initial success rate of the class was like 95%, few kids had to re take finals around the summer break but no one failed. The admissions were not tough at all to this school, so we weren’t gifted. In fact I failed in college soon after.

What I’m trying to say here is that if we push kids without telling them “this is so hard, you might not be able to do it”, they might just do it. If we pushed the gas a bit further in the content we teach, not only we’ll get people learning more and faster, but also they might get a better sense of accomplishment.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#389

Post by randomtwiddler » Thu, May 26, 2022, 3:45 AM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #363

randomtwiddler wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents can educate their own children. The costs for well outlined curriculum in the digital age are minimal.

This kind of comment usually comes from someone very young, or maybe unfamiliar with the state of many family's lives in the US. Parents aren't often educated well themselves. They don't know how to teach anything to anyone. Some of the working poor don't even have time to cook their kids reasonable meals. Locally we're experiencing a bus driver shortage (more like a pay shortage), and the school district knows that…

This is a problem of responsibility. Regardless of conditions, ultimate responsibility for a child's education is with the parents. This notion that it is the governments job is backwards and dangerous. Teachers don't love my children. Administrators don't love my children. I love my children. Anything someone might claim is love, doesn't hold a candle to a loving parent.

Taking responsible for education doesn't mean you have to do it all yourself. You see that it happens and accept the personal cost.

Your assumptions about me is not only wrong it's irrelevant. Not only do I have more experience raising children than any two men you are likely to know (I have many), I've lived among much much poorer people than 99% of hacker news. In places that struggle with running water and electricity to say nothing of Internet (none).

You're feeding me a bunch of excuses. Yes, some people struggle and it can impact their ability to do it. But where there is a will there's a way. Good parents find a way, it has much less to do with wealth and much much more to do with good family structure - which even poor people can do perfectly fine.

Cause and effect are often reversed. You aren't going to have good families because you are wealthy. Families get wealth when they are good families.

When children are well loved and have good characters they will prosper. They will understand good families and tend to have good families themselves.

A lack of love creates behavioral problems that can dominate a life and can easily be passed into the next generation. A society centered around school life will not provide children with love in a life devoid of it.

Society can't fix the problems at home but it can certainly stop getting in the way.