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IBM's Asshole Test

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Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#381

Post by apocolyps6 »

ALittleLight wrote: post #325
krisoft wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The taxi driver is going to text or email HR or the hiring manager or someone? That would be indeed implausible. But not every transaction happens between undeferentiated cogs. A specific person organises the interview logistics from the company. Let’s call him Joe. When they agree with a candidate on an interview date Joe picks up the phone and calls the hotel to book a room. After that Joe calls George the truste…

Since you asked, I find a few things implausible about your story. First, taxi drivers typically work with dispatchers. They aren't scheduling their own calls or schedules - because they are busy driving. Second, in the world of "decades ago" we are pre-smartphone. How, exactly, are you going to call up the taxi driver for a chat? And don't you think the taxi driver is going to notice that he has to take a call from…

> In the world of "decades ago" we are pre-smartphone. How, exactly, are you going to call up the taxi driver for a chat?

People... talked before phones were invented?

Why is it so hard to imagine that the guy from the car service you always use might exchange some small talk when he drops someone off? Sometimes a friendly relationship develops between people who regularly interact

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#382

Post by eropple »

metadat wrote: post #168
eropple wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but for my money, a company that does that isn't a company to work for. I don't work for free and you shouldn't either.

Honest question: What difference does it make whether you work on a l33tcode question or a real problem in the interview? At least the real problem has a chance of being interesting. Sometimes I do give candidates examples of real challenges we're facing. The purpose is not to get anything for free, but rather to see if they're good at coming up with new ideas. It also gets boring asking the same questions that may o…

> The purpose is not to get anything for free, but rather to see if they're good at coming up with new ideas.

These "new ideas" are things you should be paying them for.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#383

Post by skissane »

lupire wrote: post #357
skissane wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that this might unintentionally discriminate against culturally diverse candidates. Standards of politeness can vary between cultures (and even subcultures), and a person might behave in a way which is perceived as polite in their (sub)culture but as impolite in the culture of the service worker; an "asshole" could turn out to just be a cultural misunderstanding. Particularly if the candidate is from a minori…

> neurodiverse candidates Indivual persons can't be "diverse". Only a population can be "diverse".

I don't completely disagree with your objection to the term, I think it is a term worthy of being critiqued. But, sometimes, when one is trying to communicate, the best option is to choose language which the majority of one's listeners will understand, even if one views that language as being in some ways flawed; choosing less flawed, yet less familiar, language may make it harder for the average listener to appreciate the point, and discussing the pros and cons of different terminological options can be a distracting detour which may also stand in the way of getting the primary point across. I think you are objecting, not to my point, but rather how I put it, because I think I could have made the same point without using that term. (And the same applies to my use of "culturally diverse", albeit for somewhat different reasons.)

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#384

Post by oorza »

skissane wrote: post #324
d110af5ccf wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there an easy and objective way to tell the difference? Better question, does it matter? As you said, bad hires are expensive. We aren't talking about language barriers here, we're talking about behavior that comes across as (your words) capital A asshole. If the person is going to behave that way on the job and it drags the team down, does it matter why they behave that way? I know I wouldn't want to be stuck w…

Who is an "asshole" depends a lot on perception though. One thing which noduerme said in their comment [0] struck me: > It also goes to the WASP distaste or disdain for the Jewish style of discourse. Historically, someone at IBM saying a candidate was brusque could quite easy be code for saying they were Jewish. I have the kind of personality which likes facts, details, debate, argument, pedantry, technicalities, obs…

> I pointed out to her she was wrong, and that if she read section 42 of the Marriage Act 1961 it should be obvious to her that she was wrong.

This isn't being blunt, this being a straight up dick. I hope you went back and apologized for acting out later. If this is your definitions of bluntness and is standard fare for your behavior, you are actually the capital A Asshole the comment chain is referring to. It's not about the truth of the matter, it's the total lack of empathy in your entire comment about this interaction.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#385

Post by rowanG077 »

gopher_space wrote: post #264
ALittleLight wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen several stories like this - the janitor, or secretary, or whoever is actually a trusted individual who is the true judge of character. To me, it seems implausible, more of a "feel good" story, but it also seems ill advised. Does the driver know he's part of the loop? Does the driver attend the debrief? Does the driver distinguish between great, normal, sub-normal, and bad social skills? What portion of je…

One difference you might see is that the stories all have increased rewards for good behavior. Good behavior isn't something that's rewarded outside of childhood, it's just expected to be your default as an adult. The comments above talk about punishment for bad behavior, which happens all day every day. Nobody cares about giving the candidate a 'fair shake' because if you know and trust someone enough to listen to t…

Good behaviour is not rewarded? You and I must live in very different worlds then. Good behaviour is literally rewarded to me everyday. The time you help a colleague with a problem a few times leading to them vouching for you for another job. Going the extra mile for a work project allowing you more leeway in your planning out your hours. Making chitchat with the fast food worker that you get your sandwich from once a week leading him to give you a sandwich for free on your birthday.

Of course it's not an instant reward like it is for children but good behavior is one of the things I can point to that led me to be in the position I am now.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#386

Post by oorza »

skissane wrote: post #383
lupire wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> neurodiverse candidates Indivual persons can't be "diverse". Only a population can be "diverse".

I don't completely disagree with your objection to the term, I think it is a term worthy of being critiqued. But, sometimes, when one is trying to communicate, the best option is to choose language which the majority of one's listeners will understand, even if one views that language as being in some ways flawed; choosing less flawed, yet less familiar, language may make it harder for the average listener to apprecia…

The word you were looking for is neurodivergent. He was pointing out that you made a common linguistic error, and you barfed out a novel rather than investigate that you might've been wrong or misspoke.

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#387

Post by skissane »

oorza wrote: post #384
skissane wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is an "asshole" depends a lot on perception though. One thing which noduerme said in their comment [0] struck me: > It also goes to the WASP distaste or disdain for the Jewish style of discourse. Historically, someone at IBM saying a candidate was brusque could quite easy be code for saying they were Jewish. I have the kind of personality which likes facts, details, debate, argument, pedantry, technicalities, obs…

> I pointed out to her she was wrong, and that if she read section 42 of the Marriage Act 1961 it should be obvious to her that she was wrong. This isn't being blunt, this being a straight up dick. I hope you went back and apologized for acting out later. If this is your definitions of bluntness and is standard fare for your behavior, you are actually the capital A Asshole the comment chain is referring to. It's not…

> It's not about the truth of the matter, it's the total lack of empathy in your entire comment about this interaction.

I have no empathy for her? So, when I said "In hindsight, I try to see things from her point of view...", that isn't an exercise in empathy? And did she have empathy for me? When I said "the thought that there are people like me probably didn't pop into her head either" – isn't that pointing to a gap which likely exists in her own empathy?

Have you ever heard of the English autistic researcher, Dr Damian Milton's, "double empathy problem"? Autistic people are commonly said to lack empathy, but actually most non-autistic people have at least as great a lack of empathy towards the autistic. I think it is relevant here, because I very much can see my own autistic traits at work in the situation we are discussing.

Finally, where's your empathy for me in your comment? I can't detect any. If a "total lack of empathy" makes one a "dick" and a "capital A asshole", what does that make you?

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#388

Post by Rebelgecko »

solarhoma wrote: post #275
eej71 wrote: post #67

Decades ago, in the days before uber, my employer would fly in candidates from college campuses as part of an onsite interview. The candidate would fly in the night before and we relied on a taxi service to bring the candidate to the hotel. Then in the morning the same service would bring them to the onsite and of course bring them back to the airport at the end. It was a whole curated process. Little did the candida…

Sounds fine on the surface. Until you dive deeper and think the taxi driver will eventually be aware of the leverage they have. And decide to be malicious with their own biases.

I think thats a possibility for anyone involved with interviewing/hiring. At some point you have to trust people you know to not be malicious

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#389

Post by abigail95 »

ebrewste wrote: post #188

We used to have a very basic C whiteboard test for junior devs. Super simple "find the bugs" test. The best technical performance I ever saw was a guy that walked up to the board, swiped with the marker to mark the bugs like he was swatting flies (found every bug correctly). He finished the test in maybe 10 seconds, where typical was five minutes or more. He sat down in a huff. I didn't know we had an asshole test un…

how can you possibly know how effective someone is to work with after 10 seconds and watching them sit down?

what kind of confidence interval can you assign to this test?

Re: IBM's Asshole Test

#390

Post by D-Coder »

spanktheuser wrote: post #248

I don't have an asshole test, but I do have a collaboration test I use when hiring for design or product roles. I match the candidate with the hiring manager and two peers. And essentially mimic the rapid sketching exercise from a design sprint for a very simple and broadly understood feature. For example: editing tweets. I'm less interested in the quality of the candidates work than how they work. Are the comfortabl…

Somehow this doesn't match your username.
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