No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#381

Post by coryrc » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #287

DebtDeflation wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Finally, there was a decent support of policies for the working class. Please provide actual policy examples. I don't mean like when he put on a hard hat and pretended to dig coal with an imaginary shovel while on stage, I mean actual tangible policy proposals that would have improved the lives of working folks. Tariffs were very likely a net negative. Tax giveaways to build domestic factories almost never resulted…

Stopping mass illegal immigration that undercuts native workers, and pushes up living costs, especially housing.

There were fewer deportations per year under TFG than Obama.

Not sure if you've checked what happened to living costs and housing during that administration, because they sure went up a lot.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#382

Post by gumby » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #278

gumby wrote: post #19

It’s interesting to read these (plausible, far from absurd) analyses from the Anglosphere when we have an alternative to compare, to whit the northern European democracies where marriage is in steep decline across all social classes yet the societies are more successful (at least if your metrics are things like poverty rates, lifetimes, nutrition, stress, etc).

It still seems like a moment of temporary stability though, especially as their social structure starts to stress from the old:worker ratio going from >5 to I.e. unless they accept 30% immigration over the next 50 years, the system will be extremely stressed and may fracture.

> unless they accept 30% immigration over the next 50 years, the system will be extremely stressed and may fracture.

There’s no reason to expect that not to happen. Countries like Germany already been have a higher immigration rate than the US, and once had a much higher rate when they needed workers post war.

European political decision making is primarily bullshit muddle and and absurd “compromise” yet in the end is surprisingly pragmatic. Unfortunately for the US it’s become high conflict rather than vapid muddle, which makes it harder for people to move their positions.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#383

Post by dgfitz » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

h2odragon wrote: post #255

bilbo0s wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to be "that guy", but you guys have this whole thing backwards. What men do is based on what men want. What men want is sex. If sex is free then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, but it won't cause those men to work harder. Why? Because sex is free. Full stop. If sex costs more than most men will ever have, then you can have all the liberal or conservative values you want, most men…

> What men want is sex. If it were that simple, there would be more goats and less stress.

I’m not sure if you’re trying to be funny or making a lazy dismissal of the point you quoted. Either way, suggesting men fuck goats isn’t productive.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#384

Post by mkl95 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

SnowHill9902 wrote: post #316

mkl95 wrote: post #289

In my relatively wealthy EU country there are two types of non upper class young men: those who are set to receive a relatively large inheritance and those who don't. People in the second group have to work much harder than those in the first group to achieve well-being, even if they are professionally successful. People in the first group can afford to underachieve, since they will progressively become richer than t…

So what’s your point?

> And a lot did use to be expected. There were social norms to work hard, provide, take care of loved ones, and so on. Today, these norms have largely dissolved. Young men have responded accordingly.

I mostly agree, but I think there are more causes than what is implied by OP.

My suspicion is that working hard is still a social norm, but the way wealth has been distributed over the previous decades no longer lets workers climb the social ladder simply by working hard.

I think birth rates are low because having kids is a luxury, particularly when you have no safety net. Certain low/middle subclasses (for instance, those who inherit several properties) tend to have kids eventually, but they increasingly have them at an advanced age (35+).

Some countries economies -mine, at the very least- have been disfigured to the point where there really isn't a clear motivation to have kids unless you are rich.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#385

Post by archhn » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

imranq wrote: post #286

archhn wrote: post #53

We're living in an utterly corrupt society. I know the middle class types on here don't like to hear it, but it's true. At the bottom of society, one can see clearly how bad it is. In the middle, you are insulated in your little suburban homes with your inflated sense of self-worth. Many people here are outright slaves. They are trapped in a predatory system that prevents them from gaining any dignity. It should be n…

Is there a country outside of the US that does not have some of the corrupt aspects you mention? Does this corruption pervade only at a national level or also at state and town and community layers?

The U.S. is a special case because of it's grandiose claims. We are supposed to be a nation by the people and for the people, a nation that is supposed to be a bastion of liberty against the dark tyrannical forces of the world that routinely attempt to enslave man.

Corruption in this context is more severe than equivalent corruption in countries differently constituted.

It's like a catholic priest who has sex with women on the side. Many men do that, but a priest is supposed to be held to a divine standard. Therefore the priest's actions are interpreted as a severe form of corruption,whereas the actions of a common man doing the same thing are perhaps not even seen as a bad thing.

America is like a high priest of liberty. When there is corruption here, it's even worse than equivalent corruption elsewhere.

Practicality speaking now, this is a huge problem because many people still believe that America is still abiding by its high ideals. This has the effect of making people blind to corruption. "That could never happen in America," is the attitude of a lot of people who still believe in the premise of this nation.

I'll admit that these are difficult questions. I don't necessarily have the best answers. All I can really say is that there's a spiritual sickness here eating away at us that undoubtedly comes from a long accumulation of lies and betrayals that undermine our collective faith in the nation.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#386

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

kasey_junk wrote: post #188

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working." Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all. It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.

And it’s a particularly bad short slogan because it says something a) no one really believes and b) something that is particularly unpopular. Defund the police sets back the very things it’s trying to address. Contrast that to “Black Lives Matter” or “We are the 99%” which are also short slogans that encapsulate the broad and varied beliefs of the respective movements without being off putting to even the people who…

Sure, I actually agree. But I'm also a) not American b) not black c) not an anarchist, nor a liberal [I'm a radical socialist by conviction, not a liberal]. So take following with that in mind:

There are two separate things here, to be analyzed separately: slogan/demand vs . an actual proposed policy. I think it's a huge mistake to confuse the two.

So I dunno, I don't walk around saying "that's the wrong demand", or "say something else, you don't want that." I'd rather understand where it's coming from and who is saying it, see?

Slogans are tactical, part of a movement, and the activists involved do not have state power, they pretty much never will given the structure of the US state, and as I see it the purpose of the demand is to primarily to point out the injustices, contradictions, and limits of the existing system.

In that respect "defund the police" is probably somewhat successful from the POV of the people who propagated it, who are mostly, from what I can deduce, anarchist movement types. (And yes, they probably actually do believe it. But I'm not an anarchist, so) They've made a broad swathe of the public see something that is frankly true from my POV and others: policing as we have it now has an awful history, and frankly its primary purpose in our western society is the routine maintenance of existing power structures and inequities, and in the US especially this takes a fundamentally racist form. It's getting increasingly hard to deny that, even for mainstream liberals and some conservatives.

Is it universally true? No. No phenomenon in society works that way. But on the whole there's a structural aspect of policing that may not be reformable in our current society. I saw a poll the other day that a very large % of black Canadians (my country) trust the government, but do not trust the police. I think that's an interesting and powerful distinction: Especially in light of how police have behaved here at e.g. various anti-vaccine/anti-COVID measure protests vs how they have behaved at other protests (BLM, etc.) in the past.

I think "defund the police" is a "transitional slogan" which might boil out into something better in terms of a more concrete demand if the movement it floats along in grows.

That's my take.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#387

Post by throwaway_div » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

jchanimal wrote: post #371

irrational wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, divorce sucks when kids are involved, I don't think anyone on earth, left or right, would dispute that. Tons of people dispute this. The thinking is that people staying married when they don’t want to stay married is worse for kids than people getting divorced and creating two separate households the kids float between. I don’t agree with this thinking, mostly because I’m the product of divorce that saw the a…

Divorced dad, anecdote. My kids, my ex, and I are much better off now. Having the kids around 50% time is a huge sanity boost and allows me to be there for them more than before. I’m lucky to have remarried to a very engaged stepmom, but even without her we’d probably still be better off. I also saw my parents become much happier after they split up (when I was an adult.)

I'll add a +1 to this as the kid of parents who divorced (when I was about 11). Home went from being an unpleasant place to be to being a nice place again. It is horrible to feel stuck between two people who don't want to be there.

It was one of the best things that happened for me. And my parents.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#388

Post by camgunz » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

poszlem wrote: post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

"luxury beliefs" feels to me like the right found a way to say "privilege" without actually saying it, haha.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#389

Post by zozbot234 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

lkey wrote: post #277

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

> Watching and hearing about the family instability in these communities is heartbreaking. Half or more of everyone’s parents are divorced. The kids float around seeking stability and the adults can’t provide it. You seem to be attributing the cause of this to 'Telling men and boys it's cool and fine to divorce' and not attributing to say... declining material and social capitol in the lower four quintiles of wealth…

> You seem to be attributing the cause of this to 'Telling men and boys it's cool and fine to divorce' and not attributing to say... declining material and social capitol in the lower four quintiles of wealth

It's six of one, half a dozen of another. As the Chinese philosopher Confucious was already well aware of, a tight-knit family is the foundation of all other social structures.

> Finally, historically speaking, decrying the next generation as depraved, lost, and needing traditional discipline

Except that it's not merely "the next generation", i.e. youth that's being so described. The ongoing fraying of the social fabric in late-stage modern societies, especially among those most vulnerable to marginalization due to a broad variety of added factors, has been ascertained quite objectively.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#390

Post by mola » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:56 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #324

lkey wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching and hearing about the family instability in these communities is heartbreaking. Half or more of everyone’s parents are divorced. The kids float around seeking stability and the adults can’t provide it. You seem to be attributing the cause of this to 'Telling men and boys it's cool and fine to divorce' and not attributing to say... declining material and social capitol in the lower four quintiles of wealth…

So much of the elite wealthy class and their media sock puppets on both sides of the traditional left/right political divide are dedicated to pushing the identitarian culture war theme - because what they don't want to deal with is something like this: "Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect."

This! Most of the flaming identity cultural wars are basically a distraction. The problem as always is class, and elites vieing for control.

Yes progressive values are a thing, but its media representation is nuts, on purpose.

The it's us vs them narrative leads to subjucating all values to pure "survival". This promotes long term irrationality. The powers at be know this and capitalize it. On both "sides". In my biased opinion this sort of Machiavellism is more common with conservatives, but its definitely common enough in non conservatives.