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What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

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Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#381

Post by thedailymail »

iamdbtoo wrote: post #160
rnikander wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So rent a room and/or don’t live in the best part of the city. That’s what I did near Boston a few years ago. My rent was well under $1000. Do people think they’re entitled to private apartments in the most expensive cities in the world?

Yeah, that's kind of how this country markets itself. Being able to afford a home and a family on a regular worker's pay is literally part of "The American Dream."

Completely anecdotal, but my maternal grandfather was a first-generation immigrant at the turn of the 20th century, speaking no English, no family, no job - the whole cliché. He did various jobs - fireman, train conductor, court stenographer - none of which would be particularly high-income or high-prestige today. But by the 1960s he had managed to raise 12 children with my grandmother, a stay-at-home mother, and to pay off both a 10-room home in the suburbs of NYC and an 80-acre vacation place in the Catskills.

The heroic labor of immigrants notwithstanding, I strongly doubt that would be possible for a fresh-off-the-boater today. I told my 20-something kids about it and they just laughed, like hearing about someone who stumbled across a pot of gold or a magic goose in a fairytale. I can't say I blame them.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#382

Post by lolinder »

wonderwonder wrote: post #351
lolinder wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But $15/hr isn't the median household income either. In 2020, the median was $67k. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-27...

Very true, but individual income in the US is being discussed. $15 an hour translates to ~31,200 a year. A household consisting of a married couple or just 2 people living together both earning $15 an hour is $62,400. Pretty close to the median.

Yes, but households by definition don't need to pay two rents, which means if you can afford average rent on $67k, the median household can in fact afford the median rent.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#383

Post by lazide »

maxerickson wrote: post #378
lazide wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misunderstanding my comment. Typically, folks move in with room mates. Or into communal living (like a dorm). Or in with a girl/boy friend. Or find a job near where they live (not try to live right next to a job). Or any one of many other situations which the poster seems to think are unacceptable, yet very common - and probably the best setup anyway, since it's not like they have any experience living…

My first comment was about the high cost of housing causing people with high paying jobs to take on roommates. Policy is a substantial factor in that outcome. I took your comment as a reply to that topic, I guess I still don't understand what your point was in relation to that. I also think we can take a look at what drives costs for less expensive housing. My small town is basically allergic to larger apartment buil…

My comment is pointing out that people often have room mates, and always have often had room mates. Especially in high cost of living areas. Especially if they are young. Even if they have high paying jobs. A friend of mine is a quite experienced physician, and I've known her for a couple decades. She had room mates as an internist, and for awhile afterwards. It made financial sense.

If your argument is that a meaningful number of people who historically would not have had room mates, now do, not because of a different set of choices they are choosing to make, but rather due to economic situations requiring radically different choices then maybe some data would be useful?

I know a lot of people who are clearly choosing to live in a city who probably don't need to. I know of many people choosing to have room mates because of economics, but would historically likely have made other choices (cohabitating with a boyfriend/girlfriend, moving to a different location, getting a different job, etc.).

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#384

Post by sudosysgen »

mrjangles wrote: post #83
alexfromapex wrote: post #31

I think this article starts to touch on a topic area I don't hear much about but am extremely frustrated by: how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude. In the "When They Know They've Got You" section, they mention the real challenges of not being able to obtain a lawyer if things truly aren't fair. The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. Insurance is a scam in…

>how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude...The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. For people from other countries wondering about the veracity of these claims, let's take an example: The typical shitty job everyone on here complains about is working at an amazon warehouse. This is a job people with no skills take on. They pay 15 USD an hour. In other curren…

Euro wages are typically after tax, but you are citing a before tax figure. In California for example where a 15$ wage is reasonable for a "shitty job", that's around 34,000$ take home. You can expect to pay 15,000$ in yearly rent, which leaves you with 19,000$. To get to the Amazon warehouse you work at, you'll have to pay around 5000$ a year on a car, because public transport won't get you there, leaving you with 14,000$. Then you have utilities, food costs, healthcare costs, etc..., and you'll be lucky if you manage to spare 2000-3000$ a year of disposable income.

And of course, this is Amazon, so at least you get some form of insurance. Many are less fortunate.

It is preferable to live as middle class in a third-world country (GDP per capita ~4000$/year) than as someone with a shitty job in the USA, having lived the former.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#385

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #367
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people who are poor and therefore were too poor to have their learning disabilities addressed early on with unsupportive families inflicting childhood trauma which results in them smoking weed as a teenager because there are no structures to support them towards health, but fuck them right? It’s so easy to judge people making seemingly bad decisions. Teenagers are still children whose behaviors are caused by t…

At what point do you draw the line between individual responsibility and blaming the system? When do a person's failures become their fault?

Frankly I believe people always make reasonable decisions once you account for their circumstances(this includes the circumstance of being too mentally ill or poorly socialized to make better decisions). If you want people to make better decisions then you must incentivize appropriately.

Bitterness and finger pointing are easy cognitive shortcuts using the just world fallacy. I’ve decided not to use easy logical fallacies to simplify the behavior model of other human beings.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#386

Post by sudosysgen »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #286
dumpsterlid wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or any law enforcement. Please don't equate healthcare workers with law enforcement. Healthcare workers have an astronomically harder job and actually make society a better place.

I think in terms of difficulty, law enforcement has much more skin in the game- both jobs have to deal with potential guilt from screwing up but if a surgeon misjudges a situation pretty much the worst outcome is that they get sued and in egregious cases lose their job. Whereas in law enforcement you're more likely to have adversarial interactions with armed people, drunk drivers, etc where your own life is in danger…

Law enforcement in the United States is a fairly safe job. Adversarial interactions with armed people and drunk drivers are sadly part of many more jobs, and generally the most dangerous behaviour a cop will engage in is driving.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#387

Post by FredPret »

hi_im_miles wrote: post #272
nameisname wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the wage that needs to change it would be the prices of housing in the city. This can't change because it's not determined by some governing body. It's called gentrification. It's currently happening to me. I could not afford to buy my house now and I just bought it a few years ago. Of course there still needs to be staff in the area working retail etc. but I haven't seen anyone over 25 in a store near me fo…

I think absentee ownership and zoning laws have a fundamental impact on the availability of housing. It seems outside of governmental concern because their impact is already so normal. It’s normal for rich people to own/rent land they don’t occupy or use in perpetuity. It’s normal to see almost everything zoned for car dependent, single-family housing.

Landlordship is older than high rent

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#388

Post by xwdv »

hattmall wrote: post #333
_moof wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you must choose between quality of life or higher salary, choose higher salary Strongly disagree.

Literally probably the dumbest thing you could do. The point of money is for quality of life, if you can improve it without money that's perfect.

Money will buy you a good quality of life anywhere. If you settle for built in quality of life somewhere, then you are stuck at that location.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#389

Post by wonderwonder »

lolinder wrote: post #382
wonderwonder wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true, but individual income in the US is being discussed. $15 an hour translates to ~31,200 a year. A household consisting of a married couple or just 2 people living together both earning $15 an hour is $62,400. Pretty close to the median.

Yes, but households by definition don't need to pay two rents, which means if you can afford average rent on $67k, the median household can in fact afford the median rent.

I think you are probably right, median household income likely can afford the median rent. Median rent is ~$1100. After taxes 2 people making $15 an hour are going to bring home $3,900 a month, so after rent that leaves $2,800. Probably a livable amount. To be honest I am not really sure where we were going with this conversation but I agree with all your points :)

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#390

Post by ceeplusplus »

Jcowell wrote: post #376
ceeplusplus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get a degree in the arts then? What other industry needs a master's degree and a project portfolio to become unemployed or making $40k in an expensive city?

In December of 2019 it would be hard for everyone since COVID would ramp up, business shut down, and hiring freezes were in affect. It didn’t matter the degree you had.

By June 2020 the tech market was hot again, that's 3 months of hiring pause, not 2 years like OP said.
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