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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#381

Post by vetinari »

dependsontheq wrote: post #347
vetinari wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it does not. A number of Eastern Europe countries are in NATO and none of them have American nuclear weapons. Yet. There were murmurs about moving them from Germany to Eastern Europe. Additionally - US has DCAs (Defense Cooperation Agreement; straightly bilateral, nothing to do with NATO) with most EE countries. Nobody knows, what they brought there, US is certainly not telling anyone. The nukes might be alread…

There are no ICBMS in Germany only tactical bombs... these have no military value, there only value is to say that European countries have shared nuclear deterrence. And Russia is big, they have an immense second strike capability from land and from the sea. Wladiwostok is 8000km away from Kiev.

Strictly speaking, US doesn't need ICBMs in Europe, would be ineffective there... just enough weaponry to prevent Russia to use theirs for retaliation.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#382

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

deepsun wrote: post #365

I've grew up near Russia, and I can describe you their mindset: all "agreements", "sanctions", "borders" etc don't matter. They are just distractions to prepare positions and advance their military. All that matters is force. There's a Russian proverb: "All territories are ours, it's just someone temporary occupied them". They also think in terms of territories (not people or economy) and victories. If they start los…

Why would they want Estonia?

Also, I suppose war simply has a cost, sanctions and so on can simply be factored into the calculation. It's not a Russian mindset, it is rational.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#383

Post by Aeolun »

rplnt wrote: post #342
xroche wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables. You can't exit from the oil economy with renewable such as wind or solar due to their non-predictability. If you want to stop importing Russian gaz, you need nuclear energy.

40% of EU gas is from Russia (and co.). Let's instead switch to nuclear where 60% of EU supply comes from Russia (and co.).

So we can just start using 50% less energy and there won’t be any problem.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#384

Post by TRUTH_ANTISOC »

cleancoder0 wrote: post #230
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

This is unfortunately highly unlikely. A lot of EU politics depends on the pockets of rich Russian oil firms. Just look at Austria, very rich but obviously Russian run EU country. (latest prime minister got fired by Russians even though Russia cyberarmy helped him win the elections. They decided he was no longer as compliant, so they leaked data many years after elections, Russian scandals several years before that e…

No post body was provided.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#385

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

koenneker wrote: post #294
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it can, it just takes longer to put it in ships or trains. Transport by ship from where NordStream would leave the land to China is becoming feasible now that the north pole is melting, and Russia is really interested in that. A good, seemingly unbiased video on the subject is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvy9usF7ohE

I don't know about the trains but looking at shipping: -Nordstream 2 has a capacity to transport 55 billion cubic meters per year[1] -The biggest LNG transport ship "Mozah" built by Samsung Heavy Industries can transport a equivalent of ~162 million cubic meters in a single load This leads to a ~339,5 full loads per year needed to replace the pipeline volume. Nordstream 2 probably wouldn't run at full capacity initia…

They don't need to replace something that doesn't even exist?

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#386

Post by CamperBob2 »

hef19898 wrote: post #240
watwut wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Nato expansion was done by allowing coutries who wanted to do join Nato to go in. Yes, some of their motivation was to prevent Russia to attempt to expand again into their borders. > All that is purely academic now so, with people in Ukraine dying over this shit. That is not purely academic. Framing what Russia is doing now as kinda similar to Czech voluntary joining Nato is word class propaganda. It is in fact a…

Not sure where I compared the NATO expansion, a peaceful one, to Russia's invasions of Georgia and Ukraine. All I'm saying is that Russia, pretty much since German reunification, worried about NATO expansion to the East. And personally, I get that. After all, NATO and the USSR (along the Warsaw Pact) used to be sworn enemies for decades by then. This escalation started decades ago, and was totally foreseeable. And ye…

Not sure where I compared the NATO expansion, a peaceful one, to Russia's invasions of Georgia and Ukraine.

Perhaps it was when you said, "Of those two, Russia and NATO, the only expansion since the end of the cold war and the fall of the USSR was done by NATO."

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#387

Post by ed_balls »

starfallg wrote: post #334
ed_balls wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They care deeply. China is >10x in pretty much everything. They don't to be a vassal state of China. Russia has lost the independence twice - threat from Asia and threat for united countries between Moscow and Berlin. I'd speculate the whole action is to force the West to a new deal with Russia, so they can balance China.

>I'd speculate the whole action is to force the West to a new deal with Russia, so they can balance China. If they are serious about partnering with the west, they should have embraced reforms and become a member of NATO. The fact that they haven't is indicative of Putin's plan to counter the west. It's more likely they will partner with China just because Putin isn't thinking beyond that. He's 70 after all and they…

> they should have embraced reforms

They tried that in the 90s. There are two problems. They don't want to be a colony for Western powers. Russia is a collection of a few different nations. You have to hold it by a strong hand, otherwise you have a civil war e.g. Chechnya.

So they want to do it now on partner relations with Europe. Russia will provide, natural resources, transportation link to Asia, you can relocate polluting factories to Siberia, you get access to our market and labor. Also, you we will provide security and balance China. You don't need those pesky Americans. In return Russia wants, capital, tech and modernisation of the country.

So Europeans, do you want EU from Lisbon to Vladivostok or war?

trains and artic route.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#388

Post by newaccount2021 »

bobsmooth wrote: post #79
gambiting wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia, and we basically all die? Because like....there is no other good option out of this you know. By placing American(or NATO) troops and assets in the harms way, you need to be prepared for what you are going to do if those…

I guess we let Putin have Ukraine then.

No post body was provided.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#389

Post by [deleted] »

thow-58d4e8b wrote: post #261
tarsinge wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. Just remember that the USA played the same kind of playbook (maybe worse) in Syria and Iraq. It's equally condamnable, but it can give you some perspective to see through media portrayal.

Kosovo is a more apt comparison. There's no way of condemning annexation of the breakaway regions, while defending doing the same with Kosovo - without coming out as a hypocrite who bends the facts to fit his needs

[deleted]

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#390

Post by AniseAbyss »

phillc73 wrote: post #354
AniseAbyss wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no. I'm sorry for Ukraine but how many people are willing to die over it? War was never on the table and Putin knew it so he acted.

> I'm sorry for Ukraine but how many people are willing to die over it? Millions of Ukrainians. That is going to be the real tragedy.

True. And Russians as well. My sympathies are with the little guy and they will pay the price.
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