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How bad is my gas stove?

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Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#381

Post by Aaargh20318 »

kibwen wrote: post #375
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you clarify, are you certain you're talking about induction? Inductive cooktops are a relatively recent trend Not that recent, at least not here in Europe. I know the difference, they had a resistive cooktop maybe 15 years ago or so, that was even worse, took forever to respond. There are several problems with induction. While not inherent to induction, the controls tend to be crap. For some reason most inducti…

You're welcome to your own personal preference, but concluding that "they are very impractical devices and not fit for purpose in any way" is so clearly hyperbolic that it deflates your entire position.

I mean, they are probably okay if all you use it for is boil a pot of pasta or heat some soup. If you actually like cooking they are pretty much useless. It’s like working with one hand tied behind your back.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#382

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #337
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but we are talking about an upgrade to a house that was wired for a gas range. The person I was responding to suggested using a countertop hob plugged into a standard wall socket. That's not going to work in the states. At least, I assume that is what they were talking about because there are no full scale induction ranges available for 300 pounds = $400. They start around $900.

> countertop hob plugged into a standard wall socket. There are two-burner countertop units on Amazon that use 120 volt/15 amp and are inexpensive. I have not tried them.

Yes, that's what we've been talking about. 120V 15A is not enough to run two burners at any kind of reasonable heat output, much less four. That's 900W->3000BTU/h per burner, assuming the electronics work optimally. Even accounting for the fact that induction is 100% more efficient than gas, you're talking about the equivalent of two 6000BTU/h gas burners, effectively. For reference, that's less power than the simmer burner on my gas range. The main burners of a cheap gas range are 15000BTU/h, and more expensive ranges go up to 25000BTU/h.

All this is of course fixed by installing a dedicated circuit for a real induction range. 220V * 40A increases the potential output six-fold, which is enough for any reasonable use case. But doing that is much more expensive, which is the whole of what I was trying to convey.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#383

Post by ajmurmann »

tssva wrote: post #306
adrianN wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can order a Bosch induction top with 7.4kW and four fields for 350€ off Amazon. Where do you pay $1000?

In the US you can't order a Bosch induction top off Amazon. The cheapest 4 field Bosch induction cooktop at Home Depot, Lowe's and Best Buy (stores people frequently buy appliances at in the US) is $1700.

This is really interesting. I was reading the thread waiting to find a hard, technical reason for the cost difference. Instead, this really seems to be an opportunity for disrupting the US market. I wonder if someone could make some good money for a while importing Bosch stove tops. Your margin blah blah blah..

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#384

Post by lstodd »

leobg wrote: post #331
reaperducer wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d much rather turn a knob. I have induction with knobs. It's no different. I suspect it's just a knob on the user side, and there's still the big steps behind-the-scenes. My stove's induction knobs give me tactile feedback, but lack the granular control that a real analog knob has.

Good point. Some things look like a knob but are not the same as a know. At least when compared to how it works on a gas stove. It's really weird. Granular and immediate control should be such an easy thing to do with electric. It almost seems as if manufacturers are adding in these "steps" to make it more user friendly in the sense that you can say "I've turned it up to 3". Is there any technical reason to have disc…

If they did put a decent encoder behind the knob that wouldn't be a problem. But hey, decent encoders cost.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#385

Post by Sharlin »

detritus wrote: post #319
samwillis wrote: post #110

To anyone considering switching to an induction hob and hearing anecdotal stories of how some people don’t think they are “as hot” or “slower” than gas. I guarantee these are all related to the pans being used. It is of upmost importance that you get a really good set of pans “designed” for induction. We have found “tri-ply” stainless steel pans work really well, better than on gas. Cast iron is also brilliant, I inh…

I was resoundingly in the 'induction hobs are crap' camp until this NYE when we found ourselves staying away in the countryside in a place with a basic plug-in induction hob. I sighed and presumed my Absolutely Necessary morning tea would take until the heat death of the universe to boil, but nup, it was done in significantly less time than it takes me at home, when using gas. If a crappy plug-in hob can boil water t…

But… Why did you think induction hobs were slow? It's almost their whole point that they're fast! Now, admittedly I'm speaking as someone who has never used a gas cooktop, and accustomed to coil-plate or glass-ceramic cooktops (gas hobs are very rare around here), and I guess anything is fast compared to a coil-plate, but still.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#386

Post by JasonFruit »

Well, that was a nice read. Now I'm going to go cook lunch on the woodstove. To me, not everything is about safety and health; some things are about what my family likes. We like to work together cutting wood and stacking it for the winter. We like the feel of wood heat. My kids are proud that they can cook on an appliance most people never even attempt. We like the feeling of a tie to the past, that we're doing tasks our great-great grandparents would recognize.

I think we as a society are over-prioritizing personal safety. I cringe whenever a business sends me a notification saying, "Your safety is our #1 priority!" and proceeds to explain why I won't be allowed to do yet another thing I am accustomed to do. My safety isn't my #1 priority, and I certainly don't want the companies I do business with to decide how safe I have to be. I'd rather live the way I want to live, and I'm not really bothered if my happiness cuts ten years off my life; I'd prefer seventy years of living to eighty years of not dying.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#387

Post by duped »

samwillis wrote: post #110

To anyone considering switching to an induction hob and hearing anecdotal stories of how some people don’t think they are “as hot” or “slower” than gas. I guarantee these are all related to the pans being used. It is of upmost importance that you get a really good set of pans “designed” for induction. We have found “tri-ply” stainless steel pans work really well, better than on gas. Cast iron is also brilliant, I inh…

My issue is not the pans, it's using duty cycle to control the amount of energy added. I can't effectively pan fry anything without using cast iron or enough(read: too much) oil to retain some heat mass, because either it gets too hot and past the smoke point of the oil or too low and the food will cool off between heating cycles. The other slight annoyance is coil whine.

Absolutely unmatched for boiling water, and I'm very happy using it with a cast iron dutch oven for slow cooking and soups or stews.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#388

Post by micromacrofoot »

maccard wrote: post #321
micromacrofoot wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you have natural gas service there are probably active gas leaks in your city from the supply lines, gas is very leaky

Just because there's gas leaks elsewhere doesn't mean I want one in my kitchen.

Oh sure, but it's very common to have a minor leak in your home and be relatively unaware.

Just by nature of natural gas service existing you're being exposed to leaks by your municipality. It's better to be rid of it entirely. Washington DC, for example, has over 5,000 leaks. Boston leaks ~50,000 tons a year.

I suspect 50 years from now natural gas will be remembered as fondly as leaded gasoline is today.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#389

Post by avianlyric »

gruez wrote: post #347
peregrine wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you have is resistive electric stove. It is not the same as an induction stove.

Right, but duty cycling is a common method of output control. I've seen induction cooktops (presumably cheap ones) that also has the same behavior.

Sure all inductions jobs will use duty cycling (pulse width modulation if we’re getting technical). But that doesn’t determine responsiveness.

With a resistive hob (ceramic hob is the industry name) you’re relying on a large lump of stone (hence the name ceramic hob) to be a heat store and even out the elements lumpy power output. Problem with this approach is that it takes forever for the stone to heat up and cool down, so the hob is slow to respond.

With an induction hob, your heating pan directly with a electromagnetic field, the only thermal mass in the entire system is the pan. The hob can instantly change its power output, because its not relying on a stone to store energy, and thus has zero thermal mass.

So induction hob react at the speed of your pan, you have lightweight pan, then the pan temperature will change almost instantly. You got a heavy cast iron pan, then the pan will take a little longer to shed the extra heat.

FYI: If the hob glows when heating, it’s not induction. It’s a ceramic hob. Ceramic hobs are crap and give induction hobs a really bad name because the look the same when off. You can only tell if an induction hob is, if there’s a pan on top. They’re incapable of creating heat without a pan on top.

Re: How bad is my gas stove?

#390

Post by schmichael »

JasonFruit wrote: post #386

Well, that was a nice read. Now I'm going to go cook lunch on the woodstove. To me, not everything is about safety and health; some things are about what my family likes . We like to work together cutting wood and stacking it for the winter. We like the feel of wood heat. My kids are proud that they can cook on an appliance most people never even attempt. We like the feeling of a tie to the past, that we're doing tas…

Findings like this, like all societal issues from climate to pandemic, are naturally read as “What should I do?” when they should be read as “What should society incentivize?”

Sure electric instead of gas, bike instead of car, N95 instead of cloth, are all beneficial choices on an individual level, but it’s much more important for authorities to create incentives to encourage optimal behaviors.

Want to use a wood stove and understand the risks? Great! But maybe building codes are stricter to discourage using them in new construction and/or regulations require proper ventilation.

We shouldn’t expect every individual consumer to be an expert on indoor pollution, carbon emissions, and viral transmission. You’ll never get the kind of aggregate behavior needed for significant change, and the people most likely to suffer are those who don’t have the leisure time and ability to install NO2 sensors all over their house and contact friends who are experts.

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