Live data from Hacker News

Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

marketwatch.com

381–390 of 476 posts

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#381
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the case shiller index for Phoenix - it is absolutely wild since 2020! https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PHXRNSA/

One thing I don’t understand is that many people who buy houses in Phoenix believe in Global Warming getting worse in the short term (source: lived in Phoenix for a year, considered buying a house there, and spoke with many folks who just moved or were about to move).

Have you read "The Water Knife" by Paolo Bacigalupi? Mostly set in Phoenix when the water has run out.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23209924-the-water-knife

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#382
post #113

Good riddance, I hope this company burns to the ground The software developers working for this company knowingly tried to make algorithms to flip and profit off of something that should be a human right Replacing carpets and painting walls, trying to flip for a 20% profit, the people running Z must be geniuses As a millennial looking at 2 bedroom flats selling for £575k (780k usd, not far from a million dollars) in…

Since I don't own any properties I must have some loose screws in my head as apparently only 2 options are available. :) It must be this then that leaks some questions in my thoughts. What if the money you buy the properties with is a result of your contributions? Is there a decent and accessible way to have funds to buy such properties while not having to contribute first? Let's say I've spent 20 years working 12 ho…

> What if the money you buy the properties with is a result of your contributions?

This isn't math. Prior "good" contributions to society don't even out "bad" contributions, no matter how we define them. To put an extreme example, you're not allowed to steal from anyone no matter how many people you helped recover their money from scams.

> What is the optimal path to reap rewards of my contributions?

It's very easy: do not speculate with human rights. When you buy a house for "investment", you are adding demand to the market, pushing prices up. Housing is inelastic, specially in the short term, so you're probably driving someone that needed a place to live out of the market, just for what? To sell it later for a higher price, driving prices further up? To rent it to people that need a place to leave, making it so that they lose wealth to you instead of owning it?

There's no need to delve into deep philosophical discussions of what is right and wrong, what is fair and isn't, and what did the communists do. The discussion is simple: don't speculate with housing.

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that, specifically, wrong? I'm going to reply to your other comment as well, but I'd like to drive this point/idea to a conclusion as well.

Are you asking why, in a system that its supporters claim is a meritocracy, it wrong for it to be easier for the rich to get richer than for the poor to achieve parity, given equal merit? Is that a rhetorical question, or are you about to argue in favor of the ethics of feudalism? Because bridging that ethical divide would take more than a simple hacker news comment. edit: Ah, to more directly address you point earli…

Oh boy, this jumps around a lot and very little is very deep so my answers will have to jump around a bit to make sure I didn't miss anything.

> Are you asking why, in a system that its supporters claim is a meritocracy,

who's made these assertions, and where? Not anywhere in the thread's I've read...

> it wrong for it to be easier for the rich to get richer than for the poor to achieve parity, given equal merit?

Is it wrong though? Should everything be equally as hard? Or is it permissible that some things should be harder than others. And where/how do I draw the lines to know when it's unfair?

> Is that a rhetorical question,

It was, I even said as much. I'd ready to agree, but I can't until you actually make a conclusion.

> or are you about to argue in favor of the ethics of feudalism? Because bridging that ethical divide would take more than a simple hacker news comment.

I'm not trying to argue anything, I'd like like try and tease out arguments worth considering.

> edit: Ah, to more directly address you point earlier, and lay it out in simple ethical terms: withholding essential goods (housing) from others is a moral wrong according to consequentialist ethics systems.

Perhaps, but this evaluation is shallow enough to be useless for me to apply in the reality in which I live. What about the consequence of destruction of value from freely allowing anyone without an interest from living off your property? But they might die, and life is more important than money? Sure, but what about in an area where they wouldn't die, then is it moral? But people deserve to be comfortable! So do I need to provide heat and water, and other utilities? To what extent? Any conclusion that adds more questions than answers is useless. Ethics aren't scientific research, answers that only create more questions aren't useful...

> Doing things with a motivation of greed (profit) is also considered a moral wrong in intent-based ethics systems.

This is new to me, I assumed it was amoral. What makes it immoral?

> The agreed upon axiom that they contribute nothing in return means there is no moral good to outweigh the moral wrong in either system, so in combination it is a net moral wrong.

So there is an example where the net morality could come out in the positive?

> This really shouldn't need to be spelled out.

And... we're back the the original problem that I tried to call out from the beginning. Anyone that doesn't already know what you know, and preemptively agree with you is the problem? Now who's arguing for feudalism if you don't already have knowledge and power, you're undeserving?

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scalpers don't provide liquidity, market makers do

Why don’t scalpers provide liquidity? If Alice has season tickets to a basketball team, and Bob buys some of them to scalp later, isn’t he adding liquidity? I know nothing.

Scalpers provide liquidity to producers of goods in markets that don't need additional liquidity. For the consumers, he does not provide any liquidity at all. So effectively, scalpers do not provide any "effective" liquidity.

Scalpers always buy stuff where there is already high organic demand from actual end users, because scalping only works if demand outstrips supply. This demand is the liquidity the producer of the stuff needs, and it's already sufficient for them to sell all their inventory quickly, so the scalper obviously does not provide any useful service to the producer.

For the buyers, they act as a seller, but for each item they offer, the original producer has one less to offer, as the scalper has bought it from the original producer. Therefore, they provide exactly no additional liquidity for the end user.

The only thing they do is ratchet up prices and reduce customer service levels (the original producer or an actual, professional reseller will most likely offer better customer services than some random guy on eBay), which are both net negatives for everyone but the scalper.

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to analysis from engineers, or Esther from a guy I used to work with who studied break waves for the state transportation board, less cars with larger gaps is better. That's why you see semaphores on highway entering ramps sometimes, ie 101 around SV or certain European big city inner highways. This is a problem that can probably be solved someday with self driving cars collaborating to make highways huge c…

Actually, this is a problem that is already solved by smart motorways in the UK (Europe too maybe?). They have a variable speed limit that dynamically changes according to traffic that stop brake waves happening. Do you not have them in the US?

Not only do we not have them, but I don't think I've ever read a freeway speed limit sign at all.

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I don't own any properties I must have some loose screws in my head as apparently only 2 options are available. :) It must be this then that leaks some questions in my thoughts. What if the money you buy the properties with is a result of your contributions? Is there a decent and accessible way to have funds to buy such properties while not having to contribute first? Let's say I've spent 20 years working 12 ho…

> What if the money you buy the properties with is a result of your contributions? This isn't math. Prior "good" contributions to society don't even out "bad" contributions, no matter how we define them. To put an extreme example, you're not allowed to steal from anyone no matter how many people you helped recover their money from scams. > What is the optimal path to reap rewards of my contributions? It's very easy:…

You're manipulative with words ... "bad" contributions is something that's not a part of this discussion and buying a property to rent is not a bad contribution only for people with contradicting also selfish interests (I want to buy myself a house cheaply) ... maybe that's why you see "no need in going into deep philosophical discussions". Human rights is a nice buzzword used very loosely and it tends to mean whatever the user considers useful to themself at that moment, I recommend reading some fundamental bills and know what's in it.

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course.

Car rentals? Tool rentals? Camera equipment rentals? Leeches, all of them?

That's the core of the issue, tools have elastic supply and demand. A tool rental business meaningfully assists in matching the two - it's very likely a tool I rent would not exist otherwise, or if it did, it's because I financed it, a much greater expense for me for little gain. I wish there was more tool and car rental.

Housing, for the most part, does not do this. New housing is rare, and I can't walk away from that market, or even reduce my usage without severe loss of quality of life.

So yes, the only thing a landlord did for me is have more money than me when I was born, which if you look closely, isn't actually a service at all.

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you asking why, in a system that its supporters claim is a meritocracy, it wrong for it to be easier for the rich to get richer than for the poor to achieve parity, given equal merit? Is that a rhetorical question, or are you about to argue in favor of the ethics of feudalism? Because bridging that ethical divide would take more than a simple hacker news comment. edit: Ah, to more directly address you point earli…

Oh boy, this jumps around a lot and very little is very deep so my answers will have to jump around a bit to make sure I didn't miss anything. > Are you asking why, in a system that its supporters claim is a meritocracy, who's made these assertions, and where? Not anywhere in the thread's I've read... > it wrong for it to be easier for the rich to get richer than for the poor to achieve parity, given equal merit? Is…

>I'm not trying to argue anything, I'd like like try and tease out arguments worth considering.

Hacker News comments aren't this place for this.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

>Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

>Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

Moreover, you've complained about no one providing explanations (they have) while providing none of your own.

There's no point in responding further to your questions, since you're providing no substance of your own, but have a very short list of what you should google for context, in the event you're not trolling, and are just somehow trying the socratic method while ignorant of philosophy:

>who's made these assertions, and where? Not anywhere in the thread's I've read...

The topic is Capitalism, read what its supporters say.

>This is new to me, I assumed it was amoral. What makes it immoral?

Virtue ethics, Judeo-Christian-influenced philosophy, some deontologists.

While you're at it, maybe look up logical induction. I recall Philosophy Tube [1] has a good video on it, if you're so inclined.

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#389
post #100

Crazy. I recently sold a condo to Opendoor for significantly more than I would have even thought to list it for. When I negotiated with Opendoor after their initial offer, I pointed out a recently sold condo (days before, in similar condition, layout and finishes) in the same complex that sold for much higher than Opendoor offered. Within hours Opendoor came back matching that same selling price. The kicker? It was a…

My favorite story of algorithmic pricing gone mad was discovered by a postdoc in my grad school lab, leading to an out of print book being listed on Amazon for over $23 million: https://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358

I actually have that book, bought when it was first published, so long before the Amazon story.

Re: Zillow to stop flipping homes, loses more than $550M, lays off 25% of staff

#390

Crazy. I recently sold a condo to Opendoor for significantly more than I would have even thought to list it for. When I negotiated with Opendoor after their initial offer, I pointed out a recently sold condo (days before, in similar condition, layout and finishes) in the same complex that sold for much higher than Opendoor offered. Within hours Opendoor came back matching that same selling price. The kicker? It was a…

I spent a lot of time doing quant models for financial products. Two lessons: - It's easy to get wrong. If you see a lot of opportunity all the time, it's your model that's wrong, not the market. Very trivial things can mess up your model, like not understanding what the input data means. - Good trades are hard to get, common rule of thumb that your boss will tell you. Someone selling a house too cheaply? Either ther…

> Percentage wise it was a massive arb, but you couldn't see this in the raw numbers...

Counterparty risk, that is where the profit came from. I did the same thing, but went into it knowing what the exposure was and how to mitigate it: don't leave crypto in an exchange's hot wallet any longer than it takes to execute a trade and take profit only on exchanges that you could legally pursue in the event that they fail to execute a USD transfer. I also anticipated the debanking that followed... as far as I know I'm still blacklisted by one bank and two money transfer services. What I didn't anticipate was how many exchanges would get hacked and what that would look like to anybody who aggregated the transactions: I get cold called by actual financial institutions a few times a year, always looking to bulk up their dark pools - they somehow have it in their heads that I'm sitting on billions of dollars in BTC. They likely don't have enough of the puzzle to put together the fact that arbitrage doesn't take much when you only need three confirmation blocks - USD wire transfers were the bottleneck.

Post reply on HN