Overly analytical guide to escorting • Hacker News Board

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#381

Post by Yoric » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

throwaway210222 wrote: post #371

Yoric wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure I grasp what you're trying to demonstrate. 1. Yes, most Western societies demand that an unemployed person takes any job in their skill-set. 2. Yes, there are certainly openings at the local brothel. 3. With any luck, there are also openings for other jobs at the local supermarket, or as teachers, or as nannies, or working the fields, or cleaning cars, or coding, or... => Yes, some women (and I…

> I don't quite connect this to your affirmation that "its not normal work." Really? You cannot get there? Ok: If its normal work, then you - like what happened twice in Germany in my OP - are going to have to deal at some point with the case of a broken, depressed, uneducated, abused woman with dependency issues, likely ostracised from her family, etc, etc. who is desperate to never go back to her prostitution job.…

So, if I understand correctly, your argument is that this specific job is a really, really bad match for some specific people (and more specifically for their physical and mental health), right?

If that's your argument, I'm pretty sure that I can find a few other jobs that are really, really bad matches for the physical and mental health of some people.

Now, I'm sure that I can find other arguments that go in your sense. If I had a daughter, I would probably not want her to become a sex worker, because I would be scared for her physical and mental health, in addition to the potential of ostracism. No idea how I would react about a son becoming a sex worker. But then, I would also not want my child to become a soldier or a cop for most of the same reasons, or a trucker or a miner, because I imagine that both jobs are also bad for physical and mental health, or any office job that would put them under the orders of an abusive boss, or a nurse in an underfunded hospital, or an Amazon warehouse worker, etc.

So, what I'm attempting to say is:

- we agree that it's very likely that low-end sex work is most likely a really bad place to be;

- we probably agree that there are lots of really bad jobs in the world;

- there are stigmata to sex work, including social pressure and the fact that low-end sex workers are basically not protected by the law;

- seen from a comfortable distance, and with the additional luxury of not being in a shitty job (anymore), my impression is that the biggest problem of sex work is not the sex but the stigmata and that these are pretty much artificial.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#382

Post by silexia » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

Jabbles wrote: post #263

jwally wrote: post #225

I’ve always wondered why nobody’s ever set up a porn-for-hire business (maybe they have) to hide a prostitution business behind whatever laws make pornography legal. It’d essentially be an escort service where the “John” finances the “shoot” renting your room, equipment, and the girl’s time. They could then take their film and destroy it or distribute it.

It's not that simple: https://www.popehat.com/2016/11/06/private-porn-shoots-brill...

This is the best answer and the article is extremely well written.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#383

Post by throwaway472927 » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:21 PM UTC

brabel wrote: post #349

Aella wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience was not that niche and unique; I tried to consistently show data around how prices might impact your experience. The amount you charge is not correlated with the majority of the questions I asked sex workers.

In some Nordic countries, it's not illegal to sell sex, but it is to buy it. What do you think about that? Do you think making the men fear the law, but not the women, would do anything to help the women? I guess the government's objective is to kill the business completely, which is about as realistic as prohibiting alcohol.

From the linked article

This increases competition of sex workers for johns, artificially drives prices down, gives johns greater bargaining power over sex workers, and doesn’t fix the problem of johns trying hard to remain anonymous and requiring situations where you’re less able to go to the police if you wanted. Sex workers hate this.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#384

Post by brohee » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

staticautomatic wrote: post #89

Aella wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of my 415 clients from the survey, 6 reported being arrested, 7 physically assaulted, 26 got a STI, and 92 were stolen from.

92/415 is a lot!

with an average number of escort per client at 26, and at least some of them being repeat customers (but possibly some of them being robbed multiple times), it doesn't look that much... Well below 1% per act.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#385

Post by creamytaco » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #350

creamytaco wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds completely off the mark for anyone that is moderately attractive, outgoing whilst possessing intelligence and social skills (I know, such a high bar to clear amongst SV types). The fact is, if one is above average in these areas, sex with attractive females doesn't cost one anything besides the time one puts in for the experience itself. Throwing money at escorts is such a loser move (and the experience s…

> The fact is, if one is above average in these areas I'm 65. When I was 18, I was very scruffy, probably smelled bad, and had no money and no car. Women didn't exactly jump at me. I didn't try very hard to persuade them to. And there were no dating apps, and no websites. I've never been into the "fuckem-and-chuckem" school of romance - I had a few one-nighters with pretty girls. If I was up for paying an escort, I'd…

I don’t need to have the escort experience to know it sucks. Not only have I had close friends that did (there was a group at Google that started out as typical virgin nerds and dabbled in high class escorts) but reading those escort testimonials should make it more than clear that the forced for-money experience is far inferior to actual sexual chemistry.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#386

Post by manquer » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

brabel wrote: post #349

Aella wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience was not that niche and unique; I tried to consistently show data around how prices might impact your experience. The amount you charge is not correlated with the majority of the questions I asked sex workers.

In some Nordic countries, it's not illegal to sell sex, but it is to buy it. What do you think about that? Do you think making the men fear the law, but not the women, would do anything to help the women? I guess the government's objective is to kill the business completely, which is about as realistic as prohibiting alcohol.

Laws against sex work traditionally also make victim(involuntary or forced workers or trafficked) also the criminal.

It is extremely hard to differentiate who is involuntary legally even if there was strong provisions for it and sex workers mostly can not pay for expensive legal counsel who can make that case.

Nordic laws are an attempt to not decriminalize sex work at the same time not punish the workers at all.

It is not about controlling demand over supply

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#387

Post by KaiserPro » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #268

KaiserPro wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but the issue the article points out that she as an escort has no access to law, should something go wrong. If an in-house hair dresser was assaulted/robbed/stolen from, they would be able to report it to the police. There would be a strong chance (well as high as any other crime) that it would be punished. There would also be an opportunity to use/create a verification scheme for clients, but also ask for insurance/…

> hire security In the UK, being paid by a pro sex-worker for services in support of that work is a crime called "Living off immoral earnings", and it's treated quite a bit more seriously than prostitution. How do you tell whether the big guy in the car across the street is really just protection, or whether he's a pimp, taxing a harem of girls with threats of violence?

more information on this:

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/living-off-immoral-earnin...

Modern law has been complicated somewhat by a change in heart. There was an attempt at loosening the rules around prostitution(pre 2009), but they have subsequently been tightened a bit. In short its a mess.

> really just protection, or whether he's a pimp, taxing a harem of girls with threats of violence?

this is where I diverge from sex workers on my opinion on this. They are pushing for discrimination. But this doesn't solve the coercion/security hired help issue.

The only practical way I can see it going away is by allowing sex workers to be fully legalised, as in form a company, have accounts, pay tax, be inspected by environmental health(or would it be CQC?). have three workers, but only pay tax for one? time for an inspection!

There are risks, and the stigma will force people underground. Holland and germany _still_ have a people trafficking problem

I suspect there are better ways, but unless it sex work can be done on the high street(well not literally), we will never truly over come the stigma, and subsequent exploitation of people.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#388

Post by reidjs » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

Asparagirl wrote: post #27

This is a fantastic article: informative, well-written, thoughtful, human, and funny . And it’s especially interesting to see it posted here at HN, because while reading it I kept thinking there are some solid lessons here about entrepreneurship, sales, and product pricing that could certainly be applied to your average start-up SaaS. I mean, anchoring your price high, to better capture the businessman/enterprise mar…

Incredibly touching too:

"I’ve had many clients that I remember fondly and who mean a lot to me. One client I would regularly hold in close skin-to-skin contact as he cried, and I cried with him; another was young and vibrant and too big for the small world around him. Another was a quadriplegic, and yet another was a talented writer who valued rarely seen things in me and encouraged me to do great things without ever once implying escorting was beneath me. Another whose wife had recently died and found me as his first foray into being with another woman, because he couldn’t bear to fully date another person yet. I’ve had clients figure out who I am and show up asking me to tripsit them on psychedelics, wildly successful CEOs who treated me as an intellectual equal, or people who were dying of cancer and didn’t want to go out without another bang (I recently looked up one of my favorite clients and instead found his obituary)."

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#389

Post by manquer » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #295

manquer wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is her experience is niche and unique, it is not indicative of how the industry at large actually operates so making any judgements would not be meaningful as OP was doing.

> so making any judgements would not be meaningful as OP was doing The OP's judgment was that he saw no reason why this escort's business should be illegal. That's not a judgment on whether other forms of prostitution should be legal.

He said "this stuff" , which i assumed to mean escorting in general, he would have been more specific if he meant only hers ?

Also it hard from government to legalize only some form of prostitution over others even if politically that is possible, practically impossible to enforce.

Re: Overly analytical guide to escorting

#390

Post by another_why » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #377

another_why wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was talking about a person who looks at the options in the job market, and figures all on own their that prostitution is the least shitty option available to them. If prostitution, which is heavily stigmatized by the society a person lives in and is illegal, starts looking attractive, then there is something wrong, don't you think? The problem is not decriminalization, the problem is that people don't have anywhe…

>If prostitution, which is heavily stigmatized by the society a person lives in and is illegal, starts looking attractive, then there is something wrong, don't you think? I live in a country that doesn't criminalize prostitution. But even in countries where it is criminalized (most of them), it still can be an attractive enough proposition for sure, depending on the circumstances. Not all prostitutes are those "stree…

> but one can start by stopping to stigmatize prostitutes, starting with ourselves and then with the people we know. Just threat them as well human beings.

Agree.

>> Sure, if you have 2 choices - prostitution or dying from starvation, then it's not coerced consent.

> Correct, that's life being shitty to you. It's not coercion because coercion requires somebody to make threats.

To pressure, intimidate, or force (someone) into doing something.

I don't see a difference here, drug dealer or shitty life, it's the same life threat with the same outcome. What consent can we talk about here? How prostitution can be not destructive for the psychic health? We can't look at our body as some crutch which you can sell for a couple of hours. Prostitution is destructive for the person and as such, for the whole society. And no, physical labor and repetitive work are not the same as prostitution.

I understand the conversation better now, kinda, so now i think i should've written smth like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28932786

> It seems to me you're advocating taking away the prostitution option,

I wanted to say: ~Not at all. I think it should be decriminalized everywhere, not because there is "no easy solution", but because no one is interested in actually doing smth - same labor as everything else, nothing to see here. Brothels should be forbidden though if they are "for profit".~

but what's next? Let's decriminalize child prostitution? They have nowhere else to go and have to get some money for living, you know? Ah, the age of consent is too high? Let's lower it, kids need to work and there are so many wealthy guys who would like to get some. And, since there is no coercion, it's all fine. In selling organs too - those are you own organs and no one "coerced" you, your choice.

Maybe decriminalization of __adult__ prostitution will make sense only in case smth being done for it's elimination? Like raising minimal wages, better protection of the workers, social security, stuff like that?

But for now, i say, it should be decriminalized the other way - the one who will be prosecuted should be the buyer, for exploiting people in need. And the stigma should go to them instead.

Same could be done about people addicted to heavy drugs and being prosecuted when they are caught with one dosage. Selling heavy drugs should be forbidden, carrying a dosage for yourself - no. And there is at least one country where it worked.

> which then leaves only starvation? How is this better?

It doesn't leave only starvation. It leaves people realizing that they have nothing to lose but their chains. It's not the decriminalization of prostitution we should talk about, but solving the real problems which caused it. DoP will not solve them and after that we will absolutely need to decriminalize something else. Gladiator fights, maybe?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28928183 Someone here was sad that men don't have a luxury of prostitution so let's make gladiator fights men only.