Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#381

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

justwanttolearn wrote: post #203

threatofrain wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

I disagree with people using or referencing to the seat belt law. A seatbelt can be removed and adjusted to a person. A vaccine cannot. Each individual human being is unique and they will react very differently. I agree that the demographic that are hit the hardest exponentially by covid should protect themselves (60+, obese, other underlying conditions) but everyone else should use discretion and if you don't plan o…

That a seat belt can be adjusted does not change the discussion, even a little bit, as to whether seat belt laws are paternal, or whether COVID vaccinations are of communal consideration.

> Each individual human being is unique and they will react very differently.

Even if society had an extraordinary scientific revolution where medicine was conducted on the basis of a special science just for your body, it would still not change the framing of whether vaccination is of communal concern.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#382

Post by lamontcg » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #220

lamontcg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence does he have of actual transmission? I want to see actual studies with humans with breakthrough infections giving infections to other humans. I'd like to see one contact tracing case where a breakthrough infection was the index patient that spread it to multiple people at a given venue. I've already posted studies which contradicts the idea that breakthrough infections are equivalent to unvaccinated inf…

This is not an argument by authority. There is strong evidence of significant Delta variant transmission by vaccinated people. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective... https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387

That nature article is still repeating arguments which conflate studies of Ct values of RNA with infectious virus and don't address the fact that vaccines reduce symptoms and that Ct values drop faster in vaccinated individuals.

The CDC article doesn't say anything other than "People who get vaccine breakthrough infections can be contagious" without any citation.

The actual study you cite only tests for viral RNA not infectious virus, they only cultured a single sample from a breakthrough infection to show that it could happen.

Other studies have found that viral RNA drops faster in vaccinated individuals, and that levels of culturable virus are lower at peak in vaccinated individuals indicating the presence of more viral debris than infectious virus:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v...

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v...

We also know that viral loads are correlated with transmissibility and symptoms, and that vaccines reduce severe symptoms. We know there's less infectious virus in breakthrough infections and that they're less severe. It is rational to expect a reduction in transmissibility.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#383

Post by lamontcg » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #368

nradov wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your scientific basis for betting that Prof. Pollard is incorrect? Even though vaccination likely reduces the risk of transmission, we have no evidence that even a very high level of vaccination would be sufficient to reduce R0 below 1.0. It's impossible to reach 100% coverage and even countries with high vaccination levels are still experiencing uncontrolled community spread. We can flatten the curve to an e…

I'm afraid you're probably correct. I fully support vaccination, am vaccinated and support vaccine mandates. Still, the fact is here in Britain high vaccination rates are not stopping the propagation of the virus. Maybe if we also had a full lockdown as well that combined with vaccination might stop it spreading, but that's not a reasonable policy given the low risk of the virus to the vaccinated population and young…

You still don't have high enough vaccination rates.

All the kids under 16 have a vaccination rate of 0% and they still count and they commingle and provide a reservoir. The vaccination rate in 16-25 year olds is also probably not high enough to achieve herd immunity with delta. It isn't a particular mystery why its still spreading unless you assume kids don't exist.

A single number for vaccination status and herd immunity would only be meaningful if the population was randomly well-mixed. In reality kids are much more likely to see other kids every day than hang out with the elderly.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#384

Post by AndrewBissell » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #121

AndrewBissell wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. I assume by "work" you mean herd immunity (I can't make sense of the statement otherwise), but even 99% vaccinated regions are seeing transmission because the Covid vaccines are not sterilizing and do little or nothing to reduce transmission. Herd immunity arguments don't ap…

Citation needed, because that contradicts the CDC's guidance: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br... "people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others " emphasis mine

"less likely" is bureaucratic weasel language which could encompass a percentage reduction anywhere from 1 to 99 percent. But what the CDC specifically said in the Provincetown study is that "vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated." https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-gu...

Also from that article: > The breakthrough cases are to be expected, the CDC briefing states, and will probably rise as a proportion of all cases because there are so many more people vaccinated now. This echoes data seen from studies in other countries, including highly vaccinated Singapore, where 75 percent of new infections reportedly occur in people who are partially and fully vaccinated.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#385

Post by quotemstr » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

kylebyproxy wrote: post #351

quotemstr wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current case fatality rate is averaging around 2%, but that's with access to medical care. This is an order of magnitude off from what the data actually say. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... See table 4. Delta: total cases: 92,029 Deaths within 28 days: 117 100 * (117 / 92,029) = 0.127% No, not anywhere close to 2%. 5%? 10%? It never got anywhere near that. This disease just isn't…

> This disease just isn't that deadly Vs. 4.6M dead worldwide, discounting 2nd order excess deaths. How can you be so blithe?

The world has almost eight billion people.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#386

Post by winocm » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

outside1234 wrote: post #59

francis-io wrote: post #8

I feel awful for the people with religious or medical reasons they can't be vaccinated. I can't imagen having to potentially pick between a truly held religious belief and proving for a family.

I can - I'd dump the voodoo. And there are a vanishingly small number of medical reasons to skip it. Most of the people claiming this are making it up.

Not me. But then again nobody cares about me anyway.

Apparently I learned that I’m allergic to my deodorant yesterday, it burned when I applied it to the skin and after a minute it became intolerable. Guess what it contained? PEG-8.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#387

Post by Gibbon1 » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #303

Gibbon1 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that in 1955 one of the companies producing the Salk Vaccine shipped 120,000 doses with live virus which sickened 40,000 children and sparked a polio epidemic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories#Cutter_inc...

Why should we consider it? Billions of people have been vaccinated without a vaccine-caused epidemic. We do however have a virus-caused epidemic, currently.

It's just stark the difference between adults back then and the overly coddled people passing for adults today.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#388

Post by simonh » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #383

simonh wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid you're probably correct. I fully support vaccination, am vaccinated and support vaccine mandates. Still, the fact is here in Britain high vaccination rates are not stopping the propagation of the virus. Maybe if we also had a full lockdown as well that combined with vaccination might stop it spreading, but that's not a reasonable policy given the low risk of the virus to the vaccinated population and young…

You still don't have high enough vaccination rates. All the kids under 16 have a vaccination rate of 0% and they still count and they commingle and provide a reservoir. The vaccination rate in 16-25 year olds is also probably not high enough to achieve herd immunity with delta. It isn't a particular mystery why its still spreading unless you assume kids don't exist. A single number for vaccination status and herd imm…

Estimates for case rates among under 16s are up to 50%, half of them may well have had it already. They also fight it off fairly quickly and the vaccine doesn't stop you getting it. Add all that together and there rally doesn't look like a compelling case for vaccing kinds, at least in the UK.

We are rolling it out to 16-17 year olds, which happens to be the ages of my kids and both had their first shots about a week ago. There may be some marginal benefit for youngsters, but those dose are better deployed elsewhere. Over 17s are already well vaccinated here.

I'm not at all anti-vaccine, they've transformed the UK, but there's just no point vaccing under 16s. We're deep into diminishing returns with that, and those doses are sorely needed in many other countries.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#389

Post by oliwarner » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #380

oliwarner wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? They have been studied. For this and for other vaccinations. Kids get duplicate MMRs all the time because of lost paperwork. Sometimes it feels like a new virus comes along and people forget we have 111 years experience with vaccinations.

It's not even the same technology.

But the method is identical. Get cells to present the proteins you want blasted. One uses direct mRNA deposition, the other hoodwinks denatured viruses into doing exactly the same thing.

mRNA isn't a scary new thing, it's a fundamental part of cell function. The clever new thing here is that we can bung it directly into cells to make proteins without having to mess around with carrier viruses.

Hundreds of millions of people have been exposed to covid and have also had a vaccine now, so even forgetting that there's no theoretical problem here, it has a physically tested track record.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#390

Post by quotemstr » Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

ZetaZero wrote: post #362

anonygler wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 2 separate issues. Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. Preventing hospitalization is a separate matter and not really worthy of a mandate. Banning alcohol and fast food will save far more lives, in that case.

> Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. 91% is a huge reduction. "COVID-19 vaccines ... reduce the risk of infection by 91 percent" https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-ri...

Maybe so --- but places like Iceland still have big COVID waves despite very high vaccination rates, so clearly, the vaccine doesn't reduce the risk of infection enough to stop the spread, and that's what matters.