Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#381

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #355

forz877 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I think there is far-right-wing propaganda like you're describing, but that doesn't explain why moderate liberals feel like the media is strongly biased in favor of the progressive left. Of course, many on the progressive left think that moderate liberals are holocaust/climate-change deniers, so this may not be very compelling to them.

> moderate liberals feel like the media is strongly biased in favor of the progressive left

I haven't heard that. Do you know any research on it (edit: I understand if not)?

IME moderate liberals just adopt a position between the left and right, regardless of the positions. It's navigation, not opinion.

The progressive left thinks the NYT, for example, is conservative and corporate.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#382

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #366

caseysoftware wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were also told "two weeks to stop the spread!" by the CDC and most major news sources. "two weeks" from mid-March would be April "stop the spread" could reasonably interpreted as "we won, all is well" Therefore, it's easy to see why people - including Trump - would be convinced this would all be done in April 2020.

Its equally easy to see how this was to keep compliance with the orders for as long as possible, then, and in hindsight. Even the most heavily locked places with an overly compliant population couldnt have gotten that result by saying it was going to last for 9 months+ Senators on the intelligence committee dumping shares and buying remote work stocks for … a two week disruption? I said the same things in March 2020…

[deleted]

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

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Post by busymom0 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

One of the best descriptions I have read of modern journalism’s impact on people is as follows:

“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.” - Michael Crichton

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#384

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #328

wolverine876 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I try to pinch my nose and read both parties' propaganda machines There is a lot you can find that isn't in propaganda machines. One essential piece of propaganda is to say that everything is propaganda, like a liar saying everyone lies. The very good news is that, while nothing will meet a standard of perfection, there are excellent news sources - you have more access to quality news than anyone in history, thanks…

> Despite what those propagandists and opinion pieces say, the NY Times, ... do[es] provide quality news (don't read their opinion sections either). You ever read Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent[1]? If you can't bring yourself to read the book, he made a film about it too [2]. But the book has hundreds of examples (well sourced) of why you should probably rethink that. 1. https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Con…

I know it well, and a agree to a great extent.

I'm mostly responding to attacks on the NYT from the right; it's interesting to think about it to a great extent. My first impression is that the NYT has broken from the 'consent manufacturing' apparatus, which is why so many 'moderates' attack it.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#385

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

nverno wrote: post #294

wolverine876 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From a political point of view those are biased sources What is that based on? > 90+% of their journalists are self-proclaimed liberals this should be immediately obvious People can do their jobs without injecting their political opinions. I see that every day.

well when their job is to write about politics, do you really still think that is true? I'm not saying to disregard those sources as illegitimate, but take them with a grain of salt

> well when their job is to write about politics, do you really still think that is true?

Yes, but ...

> I'm not saying to disregard those sources as illegitimate, but take them with a grain of salt

we agree.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

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Post by gumby » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

Wasn't this standard in Home Ec classes in the 40s and 50s?

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#387

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #332

wolverine876 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a 'right' way to speak, but there are accurate facts against we can measure bias. > Recognizing that "everyone has an accent" and "everyone has a bias" is about learning to think in greater depth than the simplistic tendency to believe "I'm right, and everyone who sees the world differently is wrong." That endeavor is not useless. I'd add that the most important step is understanding one's own, and unders…

> there are accurate facts against we can measure bias In the context of reporting, bias isn't about reporting accurate facts. That's honesty or accuracy. A source could be very biased but 100% accurate (by cherry picking facts that fit an agenda) or neutral but inaccurate (by reporting everything they hear without any evaluation or judgement). Bias is about choosing what facts are worth reporting, and which words (w…

Yes, I agree about choice of facts also being part of it (I wouldn't exclude accuracy either). I didn't use precise wording, so it's a good point to add.

But my conclusion is the same: The 'story' is usually pretty accurate, IME, within certain limitations (e.g., news moves quickly, and I find the NYT often omits some important questions, though not political ones).

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

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Post by ModernMech » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #333

wolverine876 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the landscape has become a lot more partisan/ideological in the last 10 years, particularly at universities, so I understand why people are skeptical/concerned. What if the propagandists are portraying it that way, in order to create that skepticism/concern. They do delegitimize one institution after another: Journalism, education, government, etc. - these are the big ones. > so much unabashedly propagandist co…

Journalism is changing. And to pretend like it's not is adding fuel to the fire. Younger journalists are less likely to see their job as being a neutral arbiter of truth and more likely to see themselves as part of the culture war. I'm a liberal but just as the ACLU is not the same organization it was 20 years ago, neither is The Gray Lady.

Journalists have never been "neutral arbiters of truth". That's just never been their role in society. The role of journalists is to collect and analyze information, and to disseminate it to the public. The "truth" of this information is determined at an individual level, no one is an "arbiter" in this process.

Journalism as a field maybe can help us arrive at some truths eventually, but it's an iterative process of correction and evolving understanding that never ends. However, individual journalists being arbiters of the truth is just not what part of their job description. How could it be? They cannot collect all the facts, and even if they could, they couldn't report them all to the public because there are too many. So by definition journalists have to decide which stories to pursue and which facts to report, and also how to report them. You can say they should do so in as unbiased a way as possible, and I agree, but the very nature of their job involves making biased decisions.

Also, not all journalists are reporters, just as not all programmers are webdevs. There are all kinds of journalists including editors, curatorial journalists, investigative journalists, opinion columnists, photojournalists etc. Yes straight facts are nice, but I also need some analysis to help me form a nuanced opinion. A fact can tell you something, but it won't lead you to all the implications of that thing.

I think photojournalism is a great example of what I'm talking about. On its face, a photograph is a straight fact. It's a picture of a thing that happened. But the framing, composition, and editing of a photograph essentially encodes a bias, and can equally obscure or reveal the truth. And that's a good thing IMO, I want to see through the photojournalist's perspective when I look at their work. But it's still just one perspective, so I realize it may not be the truth. Recognizing that bias exists, all people have it, and to some degree it always comes through in their work, is part of finding the truth.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#389

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

MikeUt wrote: post #375

wolverine876 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the problems. > Update: Virginia Girl Recants Story of Assault ... What significance do you see here? > NY Times title after an islamic terrorist beheaded a teacher near Paris Again, what is the significance to you? It's not that I can't guess at some of it, but to discuss it I need to know what you think. > (interpretations of Trump and Biden motives) Trump and Biden are different people with different m…

This level of skepticism would find even the Daily Mail as free of bias and agenda.

Another thing I've learned is that when they resort to insults, they have nothing substantive.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#390

Post by kbenson » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

busymom0 wrote: post #357

JamesBarney wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Journalism is changing. And to pretend like it's not is adding fuel to the fire. Younger journalists are less likely to see their job as being a neutral arbiter of truth and more likely to see themselves as part of the culture war. I'm a liberal but just as the ACLU is not the same organization it was 20 years ago, neither is The Gray Lady.

Until a decade ago, journalists used to be in touch with the everyday average Joe, made sustainable salary but not too much, used to go on ground to sites to report what was going on, present the facts and let people make up their minds. Now a days, it’s become a circle jerk on who can get the most twitter likes, they follow and retweet people of their same political side, get multi million salaries, have zero idea o…

> The best journalist of modern world is rotting in a prison cell in the UK being extradited to the US

I won't dispute that someone like Assange is good to have around, but I'm not sure I would ever consider him the best journalist in the world. Part of being a good journalist is looking at the motivations of your sources and looking for and examining the information you're not getting as much as the information you are. To accept and release everything uncritically while also hiding sources reduces some of the useful information that people would use to slot that information into where they think it should go.

For example, if CNN were to start regurgitating information directly provided by Google's or Apple's PR departments without criticism and people found out, they would be justifiably upset with those organizations for failing to do their job. That's why it's important that information from those entities is attributed to them.

That's not to say I think confidential sources should be outed, just that Wikileaks ended up inadvertently scrubbing a lot of this information from the data presented. Presenting everything you have is a noble goal, but only really works as intended when it's what you've uncovered yourself, and not what someone else gives to you.