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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#381

Post by kube-system »

telotortium wrote: post #370
kube-system wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was occupational training ever the primary goal of public schooling -- even back in the days when most people went directly to the workforce afterwards?

You'll have to decide what the "primary" goal is, but there was certainly the sense in the past that a U.S. high school graduate would be suitable for most jobs, either blue collar (shop class used to be quite popular), white collar (academic classes, particularly English), or indeed housewife (home economy). No matter what, though, a mastery of the 3 Rs (reading, writing, and arithmetic) was considered essential to…

That's what I'm getting at -- life skills are much more broad than occupational skills. Art, PE, health, sports, civics, etc. are taught in schools because they produce people with more well-rounded life skills, not because it produces better bankers or factory workers.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#382

Post by OnlyOneCannolo »

udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

Do you happen to remember any specific textbook? I'd be interested to see an example, assuming that they're still available in some format.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#383

Post by civilized »

Telemakhos wrote: post #374
civilized wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

It's an open secret among educators that the brightest students learn to read at home. Early math is just practicing the same arithmetic over and over, because the logical skills for algebra just aren't present in a seven-year-old. Art, music, and gym are actually really important in early childhood development, because they develop motor skills. Gym gives gross motor skills and major muscular development, and art an…

Thanks, that's very interesting! My son's fine motor skills are behind the rest of his development... maybe art and music would help round him out.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#384

Post by handrous »

Telemakhos wrote: post #374
civilized wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

It's an open secret among educators that the brightest students learn to read at home. Early math is just practicing the same arithmetic over and over, because the logical skills for algebra just aren't present in a seven-year-old. Art, music, and gym are actually really important in early childhood development, because they develop motor skills. Gym gives gross motor skills and major muscular development, and art an…

Additionally, it's now understood that insufficient exposure to very bright light (say, sunlight) during key years is the main risk factor for nearsightedness. Cutting time outdoors during Winter, for lower-elementary kids (K-2), when school is monopolizing a good portion of daylight hours, is almost certain to increase rates of nearsightedness. Cutting recess in young grades hurts kids' eyes, permanently.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#385

Post by primitivesuave »

systemvoltage wrote: post #366
udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

Meanwhile in California: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

This is fascinating and I appreciate you linking it. I was mind-blown when I read page 8's claim that white supremacy manifests itself in mathematics education when "students are required to show their work in standardized, prescribed ways".

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#386

Post by deepsun »

andi999 wrote: post #100
credit_guy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sample problem for K-1 [1]: "Jane fills a bag with three types of chips. There are 3-point, 4-point and 7- point chips. Jane picks 3 chips worth 15 points. Which chips did she pick?" Sample problem for grades 5-6 [2]: "Pinocchio drank half a cup of black coffee. He then filled the cup back up with milk and drank one third of the mixture. Again he filled the cup to the top with milk, drank one sixth of the mixture and…

I don't like the second question. Probably the kid is supposed to see the 'trick' :he drank a full cup of coffee since he didn't refill coffee and drank all. He added 1/2, 1/3 and 1/6 of a cup of milk and drank it all, so (3+2+1)/6=1. He drank the same amount of coffee and milk. I think it is ok as a brain teaser, but there will probably be one kid in the class to see it and all the other kids feel dumb or whatever.…

Yes I definitely felt dumb in my Russian math classes when someone saw a clever trick and I did not. That made me try harder to look for tricks, it's a challenge in the end.

I ended up with a Math degree very later on. So I don't see how feeling dumb harmed me.

PS: the top level professional math is 90% tricks.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#387

Post by azmodeus »

Telemakhos wrote: post #374
civilized wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

It's an open secret among educators that the brightest students learn to read at home. Early math is just practicing the same arithmetic over and over, because the logical skills for algebra just aren't present in a seven-year-old. Art, music, and gym are actually really important in early childhood development, because they develop motor skills. Gym gives gross motor skills and major muscular development, and art an…

I disagree with algebra being too difficult for a 7 year old. You can learn geometric algebra at 7 with plastic blocks. It's a common way to teach math in Eastern Europe to young children afaik.

Excellent maths teachers can really bring a lot to the table with geometrical approach throughout the years.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#388

Post by nostrademons »

Jach wrote: post #298
paganel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romanian here, the "I learned this when I was 9" might have been a slight exaggeration so that your friend could make a point, but as an another anecdata I can say that I distinctly remember one of my first calculus classes while I was in 9th grade (I think I was 15 years old at the time) and our maths teacher trying to explain to us how real numbers are defined and, more importantly, what that definition really mean…

I used to know online a Romanian who had moved to Canada sometime during high school, she made similar points about the slowness of the North American curriculum. I told her about my 11th grade AP Physics C material (which uses calculus) in America and she indicated that in Romania they forced her to learn all that stuff years ago. However she wasn't exactly helpful when I later asked if she could help me with someth…

I think we do see results in domains where math & science is particularly important. Eastern Europeans are consistently among the best algorithmic programmers I've worked with. My employer was co-founded by a Russian immigrant, son of a math professor. Russia beat us to space, and given the backwardness of the general eastern bloc economy they're remarkably strong in science and technology.

On the flip side, the American capitalist economy does a remarkably good job of making productive use of people who are not academically strong (this is a notable strength vs. the Chinese, as well). And American culture & education stresses team-playing, communication skills, and trust, all of which are weaknesses of many of the Eastern-bloc programmers I've worked with.

The thing is, I don't believe that the strengths of American culture are mutually exclusive with Russian and other Eastern European strengths in mathematics and science education. In other words, we could have both. What's stopping us from ripping out just the dumbed-down math curriculum from schools and replacing it with Russian-style instruction? I guess that's what the article is about, and some families are doing just that with private enrichment classes.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#389

Post by cabalamat »

udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

The focus on understanding rather than on rote memorization of methods, is paramount.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#390

Post by sologoub »

Isthatablackgsd wrote: post #375
starkd wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why graphing calculators were required for basic calculus or math courses. Always wondered if it was part of a marketing deal with the company that manufactured them. The course is said to require a particular make and model of graphing calculator.

I believe it is more of a standardization of knowledge when picking the tool for mathematics. TI-83 calculator is common and easily to have all the students to use the same calculator and provides various approach of how to solve it. If one student is a outlier (like using HP calculator), then it could be an issue since the instructor only have the knowledge of using TI-83 (or its variants), the instructor couldn't h…

Sorry you had such an experience! There really is a lot to unpack here.

As the article describes, memorization of “formulas” doesn’t actually work for my students and leaves those that it “worked” disadvantaged in future learning.

My personal guess is the “not being good at math” originates from this, at least in part. It’s a confidence killer for sure that on one had you are being forced to do something unnatural (memorize weird looking formulas) and on the other give a somewhat easy, yet demeaning, way out by saying “it’s ok, you are just not good at math”.

The calculator to study and no calculator for the test is even more ridiculous - students are put in a high pressure situation without the very tool/crutch they came to rely upon. If anything, the inverse might make more sense - homework you have a lot more time and less pressure, so try working it out on paper. Test is timed, so it’s ok to use a calculator aid, so long as you show your work.

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