Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone? • Hacker News Board

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#381

Post by infogulch » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

The value exchanged by employment is more than just a paycheck, it's a regular paycheck. It's like an implicit insurance of future pay. Once the government and businesses labeled and straight dumped 'non-essential' workers, they send a message that the 'ensured future pay'-value of employment is empty and meaningless. (Don't @ me with an argument about how it's always been this way without acknowledging that recent developments represent a step change in the employment relationship.)

"Just pay more" is not caused by greedy workers demanding more money, it's caused by employers reneging on the important but implicit consideration that is the stability of keeping a job. If you demonstrate your unwillingness (or inability, no difference) to fulfill your contractual considerations (even the implicit ones), don't be surprised if the other party wants to adjust the contract to compensate.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#382

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

DantesKite wrote: post #347

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for over 30 years, lived frugally, avoided debt, and saved a significant chunk of my salary. As a result, I reached the point, where I don't need to work, if I don't want to. I want to work. I love what I do. I don't need to make money at it. I also like to help people, so I found people that want to help people, and can't afford much. It really is a shame. I have a fairly significant set of skills and exper…

Have you thought about building small projects that could earn you a little bit of income on the side? Doesn't necessarily have to be an overwhelming product, but just a way of practicing and exploring work.

I prefer doing them for free.

Most of the work I do, is self-education. I love to learn, and I have been maintaining my competency in shipping work for decades (Which often means that I am not right at the "bleeding edge." Shipping is usually a couple of steps back from that).

If you check out my SO Story[0], you'll see a whole boatload of published modules. They are -each and every one- totally "ship-ready." I produce them as if they are to be commercial-grade products, with the appearance of a major-league brand -even the experimental projects.

There are also complete source code bases for a number of published (and many, since, deprecated) apps on the Apple App Store. I've been shipping apps continuously, since 2012. I've provided full source code for all of them.

I don't promote them at all. I don't really care. I have no idea if anyone uses them. I have a few stars, and a couple of forks, but I've not seen my stuff appear anywhere (It's MIT, so I assume I'd be noted in the README -HAH!).

Many of these are 1-source-file development utilities, with dozens of files of testing code, wrapped around them.

I like Quality.

I'm my own best customer. I tend to be pretty skeptical of most of the available dependencies, out there, so I like to write my own.

The project I'm working on now, is non-trivial. It's the kind of thing that normally takes a team of at least five engineers, running 24/7 on Red Bull, to do. I do well at these kinds of things. It's coming along nicely, and will be ready in a few months. I also wrote two of the servers I use.

It is not (currently) open-source, but I may, sometimes, spin an open-source module out of it. I just did one, a couple of weeks ago (LGV_Cleantime).

[0] https://stackoverflow.com/story/chrismarshall

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#383

Post by bjornsing » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #306

bjornsing wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers need employees, and employees need employers. If you have orders to fill, and noone to do the work, you're just as fscked, as if you have bills to pay, and no money to do it. Na, not really. An employer can just raise their prices until incoming orders and delivery capacity align. That’s a sustainable situation for the employer. There may be some opportunity cost, but they’re doing okay. An employee on th…

Only in monopolistic situations or situations causing everyone to raise prices at the same time would the possibility of "just raise their prices" be workable. If the price gets too high people will seek alternate suppliers or do without. Example: We pay a private company to haul trash to the dump. There's many such companies, so if my company raises it's prices, I'll switch to another. We had one company raise its p…

> If the price gets too high people will seek alternate suppliers or do without.

That’s exactly the desired effect. I didn’t say raise prices to make more money. I said raise prices until incoming orders and delivery capacity align. The purpose is to get less orders.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#384

Post by f0xytr0xy » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

dazc wrote: post #219

whall6 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Why would I seek a job if the unemployment benefits pay me nearly as much to do nothing?

One of the UK employers currently moaning about a lack of workers had a policy of only employing people for 16 hours a week since this was the optimum hours a person could work whilst still receiving tax credits and housing benefit. Around 10 years ago I was in the labour market willing to do pretty much anything and these kinds of jobs accounted for most of what was available. Since I wasn't 'on benefits' I was at t…

In some states in the USA a lot of service jobs will cap your work at 31 hours, to get around their own corporate policies of giving benefits to anyone who worked 32 hours or more.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#385

Post by nicoburns » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #373

nicoburns wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that's an issue if you move states. I'm in the UK, and I know someone who moved 8 hours away to a different part of the UK. Would never have even been considered pre-covid, but the evidence that they could work productively from home was there: they'd been doing it for a year already! They're a manager too, so regular collaboration is a given. It's just all online now.

Keep in mind that 11 US states by themselves are larger than the entirety of the UK; Oregon, for example. I don't know if tax is assessed differently for say Scottish rather than English residents, and 32 US states are larger than England. This is going to be an issue if you move anywhere within a country with a federal system of government. For EU residents I imagine this also gets tricky for people who decide to WF…

Yeah, that was kind of my point. There's plenty of room to move within a US state without running into these issues. FWIW I believe the income tax system is the same across the UK. There might be different local taxes in Scotland, but your employer wouldn't need to concern themselves with those.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#386

Post by zikduruqe » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

mellavora wrote: post #298

rantwasp wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans haven’t literally evolved that much in 200 years. You’re being generous. I would say we haven’t evolved in thousands of years. I mean sure, the tech is better but we’re the same self absorbed, careless bipeds we’ve always been.

Both you and the parent seem to assume that 'evolution' means 'improvement' Humanity has clearly evolved, even in the last 200 years. Doesn't mean we are getting better

Our software has improved since the domestication of animals and crops.

Our hardware has not changed and we are still on H. Sapiens 1.0.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#387

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #344

Closi wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, when I hear about people struggling to recruit, it’s often minimum wage jobs on awful conditions. People don’t want to work for absolute minimum wage on a temporary contract picking fruit? Colour me surprised!

IDK about everywhere but I'm not seeing anyone still paying minimum wage. McDonalds is paying $12.50/hr for day, $15/hr for night work. That's $30k/year FTE for a job that you can learn in a week and that requires zero prior experience or education. And they are still begging.

there's still an issue of consistency. if you can get "regular" hours... say, 6am-11am, M-T-W-Th, for example, you can schedule your life around it.

30 years ago, I managed a Burger King, and even then, they had us send people home if it got really slow, or.. call up people and cancel their shift an hour before, because of bad weather, etc. Someone's already arranged childcare or transportation for their shift, then cancelling it same day is just not a way to work.

I would imagine that a lot of places are still like that today.

$15/hr sounds great, but if it's 20 hrs one week, then 7 the next, then 24, then 4... that's still a bit unstable for a lot of folks. For someone who has no dependents, or has a stable partner... it's probably doable.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#388

Post by vmception » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

DrewRWx wrote: post #379

derefr wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say we haven’t evolved in thousands of years. We’ve become slightly more lactose-tolerant!

And the appendix became seemingly useless.

There are a couple more up to date theories on its current utility

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#389

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #363

vladvasiliu wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I keep hearing owners whine and bemoan their lack of workers. What I have never heard of, not once, is an owner making less profit to pay their workers better to get the loyalty and hard work they want but refuse to pay for. I agree with you, but do those places actually make a lot of profit? Over here they seem to be pretty fragile operations, so I don't think there's that much they can shave off their profit and…

It tells me we need a higher minimum wage. No individual can raise prices without losing competitiveness, but clearly higher prices would fix some of these serious issues. A higher minimum wage would prevent the “they’ll just go next door” issue.

It tells me the upper deciles of wealth have been enjoying life on account of the bottom deciles drawing shitty hand.

Less entertainment, vacations, eating out for many who previously enjoyed it will be the result.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#390

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #387

throwawayboise wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK about everywhere but I'm not seeing anyone still paying minimum wage. McDonalds is paying $12.50/hr for day, $15/hr for night work. That's $30k/year FTE for a job that you can learn in a week and that requires zero prior experience or education. And they are still begging.

there's still an issue of consistency. if you can get "regular" hours... say, 6am-11am, M-T-W-Th, for example, you can schedule your life around it. 30 years ago, I managed a Burger King, and even then, they had us send people home if it got really slow, or.. call up people and cancel their shift an hour before, because of bad weather, etc. Someone's already arranged childcare or transportation for their shift, then…

One of my dream labor reforms would be something like classifying any shifts that aren't scheduled at least two weeks in advance as overtime. It won't guarantee a steady number of hours but it will definitely help smooth things out and allow better planning.