Firefox lost 50M users since 2019 • Hacker News Board

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#381

Post by dmitriid » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #200

dmitriid wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> complex standards to be well specified in human language instead of in code so a reference implementation is what will always win in the end. > At least chromium is open source. That source code is 12-15 million lines of code. They implement literally thousands of specs. Chrome adds 40-70 new web APIs [1] with each release which happen roughly once every 40 days and contain god knows how many code changes. Good luc…

>That source code is 12-15 million lines of code. Exactly, it's impossible to describe that in human language which doesn't have precise enough semantics. That's why the spec has to be in code, in the form of a reference implementation and/or test suit. The goal should be to move chromium away from being controlled too much by Google.

> Exactly, it's impossible to describe that in human language which doesn't have precise enough semantics.

On the contrary, this implements specs that are defined in a human language. For example, the full semantics of rendering HTML were standardised with HTML5, and now all browsers render HTML the same way.

The problem isn't the human language. The problem is the sheer number of these specs. Hundreds, if not thousands.

However, good luck understanding these specs by reading code or unit tests (and yes, there's a multitude of tests [1]). How do you know what a piece of code encodes? Or a test tests? You really propose to reverse engineer behaviour from code?

Example: here's a test: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/blob/master/html/s...

What exactly does it test? Why? Is this a correct test for this behaviour? Care to pinpoint the exact precise location of this spec in Google Chrome's code? [2] It's only 12 or so million lines of code, should be easy to find.

> The goal should be to move chromium away from being controlled too much by Google.

By doing what exactly?

[1] https://web-platform-tests.org

[2] https://github.com/chromium/chromium

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#382

Post by paulryanrogers » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

TchoBeer wrote: post #288

mfer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is chrome technically better at in a way that’s impactful to end users? The idea that the best thing wins just because it’s the best and people will share that is flawed. It basically negates marketing and influence which is what Google’s money making model is based around. And they have been successful at that.

Chrome is fast, the UI is nice, it doesn't nag you, it doesn't break the UI all the time, etc

Chrome doesn't have much UI to speak of, despite the irony in its name. Firefox has a much older lineage and a symbiotic relationship with add-ons. Before Quantum add-ons could radically rearrange its UI.

In my experience, Firefox UI changes since then have been largely cosmetic and rearranging of settings.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#383

Post by paulryanrogers » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #230

gifnamething wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>telemetry Maybe they're more likely to cater to users who don't turn off the method they use to decide what to cater to.

They don’t need in-browser telemetry to see that uBlock Origin is one of the most downloaded add-ons, and it’s yet to be built-in to the browser despite its license allowing it. They also don’t need telemetry to read threads like this one and there’s been plenty of those on HN (and I’m sure elsewhere) and the general consensus is always that Mozilla is letting power users down in favour of trying to copy Chrome. Give…

Building in such a powerful ad blocker could negatively impact how sites and services are funded.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#384

Post by grawprog » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #149

eitland wrote: post #143

I have contacted local authorities twice about anti competitive behavior from Chrome. If two - three other Norwegians do the same that should start to look like an earthquake ;-) Same if ten - twenty Germans or Brits or French do the same. I would mention: 1. that some of their web properties (calendar and YouTube) have been intentionally incompatible with Firefox as evidenced by how well they work in Firefox if one…

> anti competitive behavior Have some examples? On Desktop, I don't see any, but I would get if you mean Mobile since Chrome is still the default browser there for Android.

Even if just mobile I'm still not sure how they get away with it. They have 71% of the global mobile marketshare, my phone came preinstalled with chrome, I cannot remove it, only disable it.

How is that any different at all to what Microsoft was doing with IE in the 90's?

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#385

Post by Shorel » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

And Firefox gained me.

I was a Chrome user since I left Opera in 2017, until short ago, mainly for performance and ease of use.

I just love container tabs, and to be able to send URLs from one computer to the other.

And Pocket integration, great when you have a Kobo reader.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#386

Post by soperj » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #123

soperj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>only Safari is able to stop this madness now Safari is usable on less than 20% of machines, it absolutely will not be stopping anything. It's also the bane of my existence as a web developer.

> It's also the bane of my existence as a web developer. I would say as a Chrome developer then.

Thanks for making this personal. I wouldn't have any issue with Safari at all if I was just a chrome developer would I?

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#387

Post by soperj » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

williamdclt wrote: post #183

whatever_dude wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not the world.

iOS users are still a big chunk of it in Europe and Asia. 20% is a big chunk, and we do indeed often want websites want to work on iOS browsers.

It's not going to stop people from using Chrome on machines where it's not available though, obviously.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#388

Post by dmitriid » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #322

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, a private company can do what they want and they shouldn't be forced to make their code run on other platforms.

No, IMHO they should be forced to comply with web standard and at least try to work with browsers they don't support first class. (Microsoft simply doesn't allow you to open any of their web apps, weather it's for teams or some of their other apps.) Especially if it involves quasi monopolies. I.e. the it's a quasi Monopoly of chrome like browsers spear headed by Google and Microsoft.

> No, IMHO they should be forced to comply with web standard

The problem is that they ram whatever internal Chrome APIs they want through standards bodies and call it a standard.

Others just can't keep up: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#389

Post by eitland » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

meibo wrote: post #370

mmis1000 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google sheets used to be broken `BASED ON USER AGENT`. https://support.google.com/docs/thread/18235069/google-sheet... After i found that spoof browser agent fixed it. They locked the thread coincidentally and the bug is also fixed coincidentally a few days after. I don't know if it is really a coincident, but I definitely have 0 trust of them after it.

It's common to work around browser bugs like this. I wouldn't blame some possible hack a tired dev implemented on a busy Thursday on a grand scheme to strip you of your freedom - in the end it's just people working there. Especially seeing that the bug was fixed after someone complained/made them aware.

If you are Google, a multi billion company, pushing your own browser with a marketing budget in the hundreds of millions range (seriously, this was important to them, the only ad important enough to reach the front page of Google AFAIK)

- then you better make sure you make it work everwhere instead of this constant "ooops"-thing that shows that Google doesn't even do the smallest amount of testing in Firefox, or they do it deliberately.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#390

Post by chakhs » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

eitland wrote: post #143

I have contacted local authorities twice about anti competitive behavior from Chrome. If two - three other Norwegians do the same that should start to look like an earthquake ;-) Same if ten - twenty Germans or Brits or French do the same. I would mention: 1. that some of their web properties (calendar and YouTube) have been intentionally incompatible with Firefox as evidenced by how well they work in Firefox if one…

We use Google Meet at work, and I use Firefox.

The "Change background" feature was not "supported" in Firefox, then suddenly I could use it so I thought they finally implemented it for Firefox as it was working perfectly.

Two days later the feature disappeared, and I keep getting that "your browser doesn't support this feature" popup since.