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EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

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Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#381

Post by franga2000 »

rowanG077 wrote: post #376
franga2000 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't buy the theory that someone else being well off makes me badly off You mean the theory of...mathematics? More money in one place necessarily means less money in another. If I sell a product for 100€ but only pay my worker 20€ to make it, I'm becoming rich. If my worker wants to buy that product, it costs them 5x their salary, but only costs me 1.4x. If all my CEO friends do the same for their products, the…

You assume economics is a zero sum game. Which I don't think is even remotely proven.

To not make it zero-sum, money would need to either have to be created in a transaction or somehow raise its value. The former clearly doesn't happen and is a terrible idea and the latter doesn't either and even if it did, it would affect both sides (rich an poor) equally (as a ratio, not absolute) and therefore even widen the gap in purchasing power.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#382

Post by rowanG077 »

franga2000 wrote: post #381
rowanG077 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume economics is a zero sum game. Which I don't think is even remotely proven.

To not make it zero-sum, money would need to either have to be created in a transaction or somehow raise its value. The former clearly doesn't happen and is a terrible idea and the latter doesn't either and even if it did, it would affect both sides (rich an poor) equally (as a ratio, not absolute) and therefore even widen the gap in purchasing power.

Money is literally created every day. It's exceedingly easy in fact.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#383

Post by franga2000 »

rowanG077 wrote: post #382
franga2000 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To not make it zero-sum, money would need to either have to be created in a transaction or somehow raise its value. The former clearly doesn't happen and is a terrible idea and the latter doesn't either and even if it did, it would affect both sides (rich an poor) equally (as a ratio, not absolute) and therefore even widen the gap in purchasing power.

Money is literally created every day. It's exceedingly easy in fact.

Yes, but because the amount in circulation goes up, the value of it goes down. And it's not like the money that is created benefits the poor - it just allows rich people to borrow more probably make even more money from their "investments".

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#384

Post by gambiting »

forty wrote: post #336
novok wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't work that way, because a re-monetization takes a long time and a lot of resources. Why re-monetize when you can use the system already in place? In Iran, cash still worked and people used it to get smuggled out of the country, even when you were given 5 minutes to get out of your house and see it burn in front of your eyes, or neighbors would steal everything without consequence because you were now par…

Of course any state can go bad. It's the collective duty of the citizens to make sure that doesn't happen. I'd be curious to know how cash helps people in china for example. Is it common to have people flee the country with bags of cash? Are there things that you can only buy with cash in order to avoid problems with authorities? My point is: nowadays, do they need to monitor every financial transactions to be able t…

Cash helps marginalized people in the society everywhere, not just in china. But China specifically has a (large?) number of North Korean defectors, all of whom really need to avoid being found out or they will be sent back to NK. I imagine those people rely on cash to survive.

It's the same elsewhere, be it UK, US or Germany - illegal immigrants rely on cash to survive, as they usually can't just open a bank account with a card. And yeah, some people will always say that it's actually great that illegal immigrants can't access those facilities, after all they are illegal. But I think that's a very cruel view of the world, people in various hardships will always exist and cash is the only fallback that exist if the official banking system rejects you or is inaccessible for you. And it's not just illegal immigrants - people have had their bank accounts closed and placed on some kind of black list by mistake before, how is that going to work if cash is removed entirely? It's already a big problem in most societies, as for instance employers in a lot of places aren't allowed to pay you in cash - so even if you are 100% legit and work a normal job, you suddenly can't be paid legally, even though cash itself still exists and is legal.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#385

Post by wpdev_63 »

d--b wrote: post #141

I’m amazed by how short sighted most of the comments here are. When it comes to large financial operations, society has clearly chosen transparency over privacy. Cause guess what, tax evasion, money laundering, political fixing, terrorism financing are things that exist and really are hurtful to our economies. Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you. And Bitcoin’s anon…

>Stop fantasizing that the government cares about the shit you buy. This is not about you.

Government cares very much what people buy and worst yet companies care even more.

Believe or not society functioned pretty well before the surveillance zoo and people were able to spend their money without worrying about their privacy. For the 99% of people that aren't money laundering or tax evading, yes the right to privacy is important.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#386

Post by thebean11 »

arcticbull wrote: post #379
thebean11 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tether market cap tends to grow during bull runs, and crypto's been pretty flat. I'm skeptical of this argument given that Tether is still trading 1:1 with dollars, and at an extremely high volume..

Volumes on USDT:USD pairs should be taken with extreme skepticism, after all, exchanges have a massive vested interest in the peg remaining fixed and are more than likely just arbitraging/wash trading to keep it there. It's hard to know with any sort of certainty how much actual volume is going back and forth across that pair. It also doesn't represent a redemption in any way vis-a-vis the backing assets so can at be…

Even the volume on a more trusted, US exchange like Kraken is pretty high. The fact remains that you could exchange tens of millions of USDT for USD per day with no issues.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#387

Post by pas »

arcticbull wrote: post #249
pas wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will spend a lot of time to make sure you are not a US citizen. At least the big Swiss banks. And frankly any bank that wants to do business with/in the US/EU, or wants to process bankcards. If you want to launder money there are people for that, they will take your money, set uou5 up with legitimate businesses, put your money into other businesses and over some time those businesses will order a ton of shit fro…

Or, just go to a sketchy OTC desk, drop a burlap sack with a $ on it on their desk. They'll get you some USDT, then you USDT:USD at Coinbase, cash out and you're golden. Need a paper trail? Just sell your buddy an NFT of a cat or something.

Eventually a tax authority will ask where your buddy got the money to buy that NFT. But if your buddy is some random guy from Russia things get easier :)

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#388

Post by nybble41 »

alkonaut wrote: post #341
ceilingcorner wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are one person and you weren’t asked to vote on it. So yes, the monied classes decided for you.

Every voter is one person and in all parliamentary systems I just vote for representatives/parties that push the opinion I want. This isn’t different from any other issue.

> ... in all parliamentary systems I just vote for representatives/parties that push the opinion I want.

... on perhaps one or two hot-button issues. You won't find any "representative" which actually represents you on more than a few issues (at best), so voters have to prioritize—and then the winners go on to vote on their constituents' behalf on many other issues which weren't major talking points during the elections, in effect representing only themselves.

You're right that this isn't different from (almost) any other issue. It's a real problem for any issue that isn't right at the top of the priority list.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#389

Post by nybble41 »

Bancakes wrote: post #204
tamrix wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society can vote with its wallet.

There is no negative vote with a wallet. Only positive and neutral.

This is a feature, not a bug. In the "vote with your wallet" system you only get a "negative vote"—actually veto power—when something directly harms you. Which is as it should be.

Re: EU plans to make Bitcoin transfers more traceable

#390

Post by Bancakes »

nybble41 wrote: post #389
Bancakes wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no negative vote with a wallet. Only positive and neutral.

This is a feature, not a bug. In the "vote with your wallet" system you only get a "negative vote"—actually veto power—when something directly harms you. Which is as it should be.

It's definitely a bug. In the rare case where something is harmful, there must be a way to vote it down. This avoids rushing to the government to pass laws. Like the right of repair, I want to vote against Apple, not write my senator once a month.
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