Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#381

Post by bwb » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #367

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

We barely trust 'our' own representatives and you want us to trust those other guys? In all seriousness, the issue is trust. And I have no idea how we could possibly get there as a human kind.

I trust my reps to be human, and I trust anyone else to be human as that is what they all are :)

It might take a hundred or a thousand years, but that is where I'd like to see us go. And, it seems like that is where we are going given the global nature of business. Do you think people working at FB or Google who are working with people in 15+ countries don't realize how similar we all are? And, that this entire concept of nations is largely a farce?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#382

Post by ptsneves » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #315

krzyk wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are no such neoliberalisms (I would say same about Hungary, but considering Orban, I'm not sure, I haven't been there) We have good welfare and educated people don't beg on streets, not to mention plastic bags on windows. Your description looks more like one for U…

Poland, welfare? :-D As for neoliberalism: in Poland the usual way of employment, called "umowa o dzieło", gives the employee pretty much no rights whatsoever. It's almost as bad as in the US in that matter, and not comparable at all to Western Europe.

I am not a Pole, but live in Poland. Umowa o dzielo is quite pervasive but this is not a problem specific to Poland. Portugal, my home country has the same problems just the thing is a different name. The translation would be contractor. As a contractor you obviously have no rights, even so i think this is not the equivalent of US employment.

In both countries the governments are trying to make it quite hard to have people with Umowa o dzielo, which are de-facto employees, but do not pay the appropriate taxes nor are corrrectly protected. The employers also have some reason to do this, the protections offered to the employees often make it a very big risk to hire somebody. Regardless, i believe the southern European countries got it much worse on that front. (Note, the Polish social security model was heavily influenced by the spanish one).

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#383

Post by wildmanx » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

tiborsaas wrote: post #55

paganel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). What's with this "Belorussian-style regime" nonsense?

While I wouldn't call if a fraud, but they skewed with the election system to bend it towards in their favour. They for example introduced monetary support for small parties in a way that made it really easy to commit fraud, which surprisingly did happen at a large scale. It also resulted in people voting for those fake parties and not on the opposition with real power. They won 2/3 power like this. "Belorussian-styl…

US style, to name a few:

> - openly friendly towards dictators / other regimes

Trump cuddling with Kim-Jong Un and being a good buddy of Putins.

> - suppressive, openly anti-liberal laws

US Republicans are working on overturning Roe v. Wade, opening the door to more anti-liberal laws. Heck, in some states, women have to drive hundreds of miles to the next abortion clinic and risk getting intimidated by big guys with guns on their way in. Cause freedom.

> - control of state media packed with non-stop propaganda

I give you that, the non-stop propaganda in the US is privatized, e.g. Fox News, Washington Post, OANN, MSNBC, etc. Still propaganda.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#384

Post by tester34 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

trasz wrote: post #334

tester34 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Eastern Europe, like many other poor places in the world, is depleted of human capital because its simply such a crappy place to live. What makes you think that it's crappy place to live (e.g Poland)? except politics

Apart from economy, healthcare, pensions, schooling, and law enforcement? :-) Food's good, though.

I do agree that higher edu institutions tend to be mehh unless you attend country's top, but law enforcement?

what do you mean? fighting corruption?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#385

Post by bwb » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #224

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

> Nationalism is an ancient mentality Not just nationalism, but tribalism . That's why the US has such an appalling record of bias. Each new wave of immigrants (not to mention the ones that were here, to start with, and those that were dragged over, against their will) has been met with torrents of hatred, abuse, and state-sanctioned terror. In most cases, it had little to do with skin color, and everything to do wit…

Agreed, it is going to take time to change this cultural response to what is different/new. We are not purely slaves to our DNA, but it will be an upward battle. Government and business can improve this and have. As does time :)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#386

Post by bogomipz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #358

bogomipz wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look up the American Civil War. It lasted from 1861 to 1865 and some 600K people died. That's what happened the last time any states threatened to secede from the Union in the US of A. It's also a pretty well-known bit of history.

The war started well after states started seceding and even then only in response to a military attack by the south. So it's not quite the example you portray it to be.

The secession convention meeting in Charleston, South Carolina occurs on December 20, 1860. Confederate troops fired on Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861. Let's see that's 3.5 months later. And for 3 of those 3.5 months the US has a lame-duck President in James Buchanan whose cabinet was also famously split oh the issue. Lincoln isn't inaugurated until March 4, 1861. Further, the attack on Fort Sumter is just the "official" start of the war. It's not like nothing was being done by the Union in the interim. Far from it. As early as January 5th of 1861 hundreds of troops and provisions were sent to fortify the Sumter garrison. Lastly on April 4th Lincoln tells his southern delegates that he intends to attempt to resupply Fort Sumter. This is understood by the Southern states to be a declaration of war. So yes I think this is exactly the example I portray it to be.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#387

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

Hokusai wrote: post #60

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

[deleted]

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#388

Post by ceilingcorner » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

dathos wrote: post #349

ceilingcorner wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but this is a caricature. These countries were dying to join the West 30 years ago. Orban himself was one of the most prominent pro-West figures in the 90s. The only reason these countries are now “hostile” is because the EU and the West have changed.

I feel like you're missing a few key points that have also changed. I think almost everything is different from 30 years ago, not just the west and EU.

Of course but I don’t think it’s controversial to say that the “problem” EU countries are quite happy with a 1990s vision of Europe, while the West isn’t.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#389

Post by andrepd » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #201

andrepd wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Iran afaik was a full blown dictatorship before the islamic revolution Yes, but he was talking about before that wasn't he? Iran was a democracy (flawed, but still) before the US–UK alliance overthrew the parliamentary system and installed a puppet dictator, to keep stealing their oil.

I'm no expert on the history of Iran, but no, it doesn't seem it ever was (Most countries in the region ever were or are one now). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Imperial_S... "The reign of Reza Shah was totalitarian and dictatorial at a time when totalitarian governments and dictatorships were common in the Middle East and the world[8] and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was some years i…

For the 3rd time, I'm talking about the regime that was overthrown to put in the Shah Reza Pahlavi...

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#390

Post by t-c-h » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

deregulateMed wrote: post #229

janjones wrote: post #193

Here is a technical report about the exploits: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/07/forensic-...

Holy shit, there's literally a dozen of Apple products exploited. It's not a single "Apple music exploit", it's dozens of separate services. Music, messenger, safari, iOS, etc... I never want to hear Apple cares about security again. I could forgive 1 mistake, but this seems like negligence. (Don't put me down as a defender of MS or Android, but at least they don't use "Security" in their marketing)

If you would have actually read the report, you would have known the attacks are not specifically device or mobile OS bound. They simply say that iOS leaves behind more useable traces.

From paragraph 10:

  Much of the targeting outlined in this report involves Pegasus attacks targeting iOS devices. It is important to note that this does not necessarily reflect the relative security of iOS devices compared to Android devices, or other operating systems and phone manufacturers. In Amnesty International’s experience there are significantly more forensic traces accessible to investigators on Apple iOS devices than on stock Android devices, therefore our methodology is focused on the former. As a result, most recent cases of confirmed Pegasus infections have involved iPhones.