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I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

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Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#381
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

....actually you do not need an iCloud account to use a mac or iPhone, but on iPhone you do need an iCloud account to download apps. On mac you can setup and use the machine entirely offline forever. The same irony goes for the Windows 11 CPU support, the next version of macOS supports machines twice as old as Windows 11 supports. Microsoft embraces alt payment methods in the store and supports regulation, Apple does…

> you do not need an iCloud account to use a mac or iPhone ... but you are similarly prompted and dark-patterned to create one anyway. It is just marginally easier to skip the choice, if you don't mind being nagged or diving into the buried option you need to switch it all off. And without an account, loads of features like family Screen Time don't even work. Apple paved the way, while MS was being cautious because o…

They aren’t afraid of those legal issues any more. They basically say Firefox is malware if you try to install it and you have to click that you are okay with insecure software to continue

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how I lost my GMail account - they demanded a telephone number so I relented and gave them mine, but they refuse to accept it. They won't take my work number either.

Phone numbers have become the new SSN tied to your physical identity. In most cases you have provide extremely detailed personal info to get a working phone number. There are probably still some ways crafty folks can get a working phone number without it being tied to your physical identity, but you must go way out of your way to do so. Privacy and freedom of speech are dead, long live the constitution.

It's frustrating for sure but the reason that they want a phone number is because it's an excellent key to join lots of independent records about you. The companies who ask for your phone number don't care if the phone company knows where you live. They don't even need to ask the phone company, all they have to do is join up with a vendor who you did disclose your address to.

You can at least do yourself a mild favor and don't tell your phone number to all those brick n mortar companies who ask for it. "we'll never call you" -- of course they don't, they just want your individual identity to track you.

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#383
post #117

I know the post is about Windows 11 but I installed Windows 10 for someone on a laptop about 2 months ago and it had the most crazy dark pattern I've ever seen to be able to proceed past the installation screen without a Microsoft account. Short of not connecting to the internet first the only way I saw where it was possible to create an offline account was to first attempt to sign in using an incorrect password with…

My username is "fucky" after I used an name to describe my feelings of having to create/use a Microsoft account. Exercise to the reader to guess the unshortened name

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#384

After watching this fiasco unfold I have a hot take: We need to stop judging these decisions based on our needs and consider the everyday computer user. Yes, these decisions annoy myself and most users on this site, but we are in the minority here. Most people do not care and just want to be up and running. They want security/configuration to be easy. They don't want to have to think about it. I think that a lot of t…

You yourself just explained how this is not a need of the everyday user: Most people do not need to have their PC/laptop account be the same as their account on some Microsoft services/apps. Also, and to generalize - we need to stop judging these decisions based even on everyday single computer user's needs and consider the needs of the computing using _public_. ... and the public definitely does not need Microsoft t…

> Most people do not need to have their PC/laptop account be the same as their account on some Microsoft services/apps.

But having only one secure login helps keep things simple(r), Microsoft can help keep associated devices secure and bad guys out, 2FA gets easier, and there is an easy way out in case of forgotten passwords and the like. For most people I guess that's pretty convenient and helpful.

Besides, I don't think there's need for a term like computing-using public – let's talk about the general public. There won't be a lot of people in the general public who aren't either using a computing device like a phone or somehow affected by others using computing devices to store photos and phone numbers and the like.

The general public is in dire need of very secure systems that can be used with a minimum of specialist knowledge, attention and maintenance effort, strongly resist being used insecurely, and that still look good and are reasonably fun to use and still allow for activities like software development to happen. That's immensely difficult and I'm not aware of any good definitive solution to this.

This isn't just a question of being nice to grandma either, this is more about not leaving whole first-world economies vulnerable to highly sophisticated attacks with huge blast radii. We haven't seen much in the way of those, but who knows what we might have seen if platform security of the big targets hadn't kept up as well as it did?

This whole complex is something a lot of people deep in the tech bubble seem to not really get: There are millions of power users, true, but there are billions of people who just want to pay their bills in an app or play a game or message their friends. The latter cohort is not intrinsically motivated to become IT pros at all (more like scared of the complexity and very disinterested), and they're not getting paid to secure their home computer, so some buy anti-virus and that's it. People don't want insecure computers, but the learning curve, time and effort required, the extremely dry subject matter, the unclear benefits, the overall scariness, that just doesn't happen at scale. Humans are amazing at conserving energy, and this checks a lot of conserve-this-energy boxes.

iPhones are relatively hard to get into an insecure state; it's possibly, but the options to do so are limited and most aren't frictionless. I don't doubt most Windows home installs so far have been running with a passwordless admin account, with pretty much no restrictions on what to run and install, and many many footguns have been discharged as a consequence.

The saving grace, so far, has been that most of those billions who have started using privately-owned computers in earnest in the last decade or so have been using mobile platforms, which have been pretty well-secured from the get-go; but to keep their non-phone offers relevant to this huge market, Microsoft and Apple will have to pivot their general computing devices towards that audience a lot more. That involves making them much more secure by default and much more resilient security-wise to being configured and used "wrong". That may be bad news to professionals and enthusiasts, but so far Apple seems to keep macOS enthusiast-friendly enough by making dangerous choices scary and adding friction, and Microsoft still has other licenses than Home that I believe are more enthusiast/pro-friendly.

But seen in that light, requiring a Microsoft login makes a lot of sense, at least to me. Whether that's the main decision driver within MS, or the opportunity to gather even more data and engineer more stickiness and lock-in, I could only guess. They're surely not sad about another step towards a Microsoft Panopticon you can't get out of, but it's not like the security side is bogus, or not a big deal.

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#385
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a shame to watch the decline of Windows. There isn't much I can recommend to non-technical users looking affordable computing relatively under their control. Manipulation and user hostility is unacceptable. Any of these possibilities would be nice: * The market presents a kinder (and equally-affordable x86) solution and users follow. * ReactOS lurches leaps and bounds ahead. * Microsoft realises this trajectory…

Year of Linux on desktop, it's coming home boys! I'm joking but secretly hoping it happens.

I'm over in Mac-land so a bit unclear on the state of things, but it seems like the problem must be marketing by now, right? I can't think of any use cases for mainstream users where Windows is a requirement.

Graphic designers, digital art types, and musicians are all fringe and mostly on Mac anyway. PC gamers are a fringe crowd. Practically all productivity software has migrated to the cloud. Desktop Linux usability seemed to meet the standard of Windows XP and Windows 7 years ago.

Is the problem really that you still have to grapple with graphics drivers on the CLI? Or is it just that Best Buy and CostCo still don't have motivation to put shiny Linux machines on the shelves?

and yeah I know all about the various shady Gates/Ballmer-era OEM deals… I just can't believe that not one OEM has snapped by now.

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#386
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Year of Linux on desktop, it's coming home boys! I'm joking but secretly hoping it happens.

Perhaps I’ve just become “one of those people”, but I honestly think if not for the buzz around the M1 from Apple, we would be seeing a lot more activity on the Linux side. “The year of the Linux desktop” always feels like just a couple of bad big tech decisions (and an absence of good decisions) away.

Linux needs killer app equivalents. Many of the foss versions of windows programs have pretty painful UX or are missing key features (eg, smart select in gimp is really frustrating to use vs photoshop or affinity). Foss really needs to start tempting designers to participate more

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#388
post #117

I know the post is about Windows 11 but I installed Windows 10 for someone on a laptop about 2 months ago and it had the most crazy dark pattern I've ever seen to be able to proceed past the installation screen without a Microsoft account. Short of not connecting to the internet first the only way I saw where it was possible to create an offline account was to first attempt to sign in using an incorrect password with…

Happened to me a few months ago too when setting up a new machine. The language was also so convoluted and strange that I didn't quite catch that this was creating an online account at the time.

I found a way to revert it and make the account an offline account afterwards, but I was so furious about this crap.

That being said, I don't see the banner you mention.

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#389
post #380
post #117

I know the post is about Windows 11 but I installed Windows 10 for someone on a laptop about 2 months ago and it had the most crazy dark pattern I've ever seen to be able to proceed past the installation screen without a Microsoft account. Short of not connecting to the internet first the only way I saw where it was possible to create an offline account was to first attempt to sign in using an incorrect password with…

Albeit, it's not that obvious, you can create an offline account without failing to sign in. Maybe it's different with anything below Windows 10 Pro but that was my experience.

> Maybe it's different with anything below Windows 10 Pro but that was my experience.

It is different with the "S" Home edition which is what comes with a lot of decently spec'd laptops for typical personal use.

I run Pro here and there's a secondary text link off to the side that you can click to make an offline account. That link doesn't exist with the Home edition (specifically the "S" edition, I don't know about the regular Home edition).

In all cases this is with the US version too, which might play a role in what's seen when people install Windows across the world.

Re: I Will Never Use a Microsoft Account to Log Into My Own PC

#390

If it's true that Windows 11 (home or pro) requires me to create an online account, then I'm finally done with Windows at home. I really hope that it isn't, but it does seem like this has been coming since Windows 10. I can understand from a company perspective that this kind of thing reduces piracy (and losses for a $2tn company), potentially improves the Windows upgrade route in future, and has minor benefits to so…

Do Microsoft care about piracy of Windows at the home level?

It feels like they just want that sweet recurring Office 365 and Xbox Game Pass Ultimate revenue, and they'll effectively give you Windows to get it.

Last I checked, you can still use an old used Windows 7 key to activate 10 on a brand new motherboard. They could stop it, but they don't make more than a token effort.

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