Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#381

Post by j_wtf_all_taken » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:12 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #328

Barrin92 wrote: post #99

As usual the article is almost exclusively concerned with market capitalization as an indicator of economic success. Countries like Germany are dominated by small and middle-class, family owned business. 'Big corporate' is indeed more successful in the US or China but it's just one model to manage an economy and I don't think it's that great. One of the most important points is also buried at the end of the article >…

>Europe has no homogeneous consumer market for tech giants like the US or China which can propel tech firms to gigantic size. Yet they use Google and Facebook all the same. WhatsApp was an American company that wasn't even used in America but dominates Europe. As far as domestic companies go, Nokia was a former megacorp and SAP is still one today, which proves that big tech has always been a possibility there. Howeve…

But what has Whatsapp to do with innovation? There's nothing innovative about a messenger app. They only thing they did is degrade privacy even further.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#382

Post by suction » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:13 AM UTC

tmpz22 wrote: post #258

ddalex wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU has proven unable to build an Apple and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes

> and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes And yet neither the US or EU could affordably fix a Mercedes

Europeans buy new cars - Americans buy 15 year old 5th hand German cars that their previous owners mistreated harshly and expect them to be as reliable as brand new cars from the factory that are serviced at the recommended intervals. Mercedes is expensive, though - that's why rich people like them.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#383

Post by yawaworht1978 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

I am not sure the US has a better economy than the whole EU. I am also not sure that staff is less ambiguous in the US, I have worked in US companies and hybrid companies. I am sure however, that the song cats in the cradle was made in the US. Do not underestimate the european economy, average education, in Europe people simply chose to work to live instead of the other way around. One system cannot be simply given the attribute "better", there are too many factors to consider.

Speak to people who have lived and worked in both. Best speak to people not from the EU nor US and make your mind up.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#384

Post by tluyben2 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #350

andruby wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> societies that promote innovation have higher quality of life Does the US have a higher quality of life than Germany, France or the Netherlands? I agree that innovation is important and societies should promote it, but -imho- not at the cost of consumer & employee protection.

Depends on the demographics. Algerians in France or Turks in Germany don't have such a great quality of life, but neither do El Salvadorans in the US. The U.S. is 60% Europe, 25% Latin America, 10% Africa, 5% Asia, and has pretty good quality of life for these demographics. As demographics in Europe change, the EU will see more of the issues it likes to criticize the US for, but the demographic-adjusted quality of li…

By what measure though: it is highly subjective and when there is a vote, the US never gets very high. Unlike Canada, Norway, Netherlands.

On this site most people are wealthy, but I think (not sure but I have nothing else than my visits and documentaries), you are really bad off if you are poor in the US. Here that is not really an issue.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#385

Post by Hamuko » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:16 AM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #342

tmpz22 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes And yet neither the US or EU could affordably fix a Mercedes

> > and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes > And yet neither the US or EU could affordably fix a Mercedes Or an Apple product :))

The problem with the Apple product is that it can't be repaired (try to swap in a new battery for an AirPod). The Mercedes can very much be repaired by any automotive shop. (And as a Mercedes owner, I can't understand what Americans are complaining about repair costs with Mercedes-Benz.)

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#386

Post by dmitriid » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:16 AM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #376

dmitriid wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you start a company here, better think about profitability from the get go. How is this a bad thing? Compare this requirement to, say, Uber, who has been losing billions , and has used investor money to engage in price dumping to corner the market.

There are tech startups and then there are "burn cash by subsidizing the 10% using VC money" startups. Uber is the latter and imo the role of the investor is to be able to distinguish which one is which. However there is a case when you need money to actually do things, e.g.: pay employees, run clinical trials, rent or build up production capacity. If you don't have initial funds then you will be bogged down by doing…

> There are tech startups and then there are "burn cash by subsidizing the 10% using VC money"

My feeling is that the absolute vast majority of tech startups in the US are of the second kind.

> However there is a case when you need money to actually do things, e.g.: pay employees, run clinical trials, rent or build up production capacity. If you don't have initial funds

This has always been the case. Until unlimited US money perverted the incentives to become "waste billions to corner the market by barely legal means" or "wasted billions until someone buys you".

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#387

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:16 AM UTC

sdoering wrote: post #329

bennybob wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

What is the overall cost of living associated with the respective salary. Amd of people proposing a free market, why is it a problem that suddenly the same job is paid more for in a more competitive job market? As others pointed out, CoL is also way lower in most parts were there are relevant jobs to be had. I am working a job that would pay at least double in SF. I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square mete…

> I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square meter house with 500+ square meters of garden and relax by growing my own food as a hobby with 40 hours per week

How is that possible? When I look at typical wages in Germany (50k - 80k Euros) vs cost of houses that size in Germany's four biggest cities (800k to over 1 Million Euros), something does not add up. Either your pay is way above market rates or you got your property way below market rate.

Either way, to me at least, your situation is extremely fortunate but you're an outlier and no developer moving to Germany could replicate it in the current market conditions.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#388

Post by Hamuko » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC

suction wrote: post #382

tmpz22 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes And yet neither the US or EU could affordably fix a Mercedes

Europeans buy new cars - Americans buy 15 year old 5th hand German cars that their previous owners mistreated harshly and expect them to be as reliable as brand new cars from the factory that are serviced at the recommended intervals. Mercedes is expensive, though - that's why rich people like them.

I'm European and I drive a 10-year-old Mercedes-Benz so I don't understand where this data is coming from.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#389

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC

berkes wrote: post #289

thijsc wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to know where to start! Looking at the Netherlands, where I'm from: There are many fast-growing tech companies. Both big and small. Bigger examples are Adyen and Elastic. GitLab started out here. This is a pretty nice overview, which still misses a lot: https://www.notion.so/Dutch-SaaS-Landscape-89504403a57e43f58... There are many many tech companies with 10s of millions of revenue that aren't even on this list.…

... Just Eat Takaway. Booking.com are from the Netherlands too. Spotify is Swedish. As is Klarna and Mojang. SoundCloud is German. Mixcloud British. Several of the covid vaccines were develeoped in europe (albeit under the umbrella of US companies such as J&J). Volkwagen and Volvo are beating Tesla in sales numbers and in getting self driving to market hands down. There is lots of high tech in Europe. Just Because th…

> Booking.com are from the Netherlands too.

Booking has been owned by a US company since 2005.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#390

Post by allendoerfer » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 8:20 AM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #145

poopypoopington wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of national healthcare really puts a damper on free labor movement in the US. You want to start a company but also have health insurance for your family? That'll be $12,000 with a massive deductible... Gets in the way of a lot of would be entrepreneurs

The EU is no different with regards to movement. Just consider public health care in say Norway and in Bulgaria. Yeah it's financed indirectly by public funding but the quality can be terrible. In Croatia (where I'm from) you will regularly wait for 6+ months on life altering procedures and tests. And the public health system is in a constant crisis because of underfunding and overuse - just a few months ago drug sup…

It‘s a little bit unfair to use Croatia and compare it to the US. Health care is still national in the EU. It makes sense for a way poorer country to have a worse system. Let’s see how the Croatian system will be, once the overall standard of living has caught up.