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EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

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381–390 of 538 posts

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's software to detect copy-pasted code or plagiarized (it analyses the syntax tree so renaming the variables and changing indentation won't fool it!). The best however, is a 1:1 code review with a TA or Prof. Randomly jumping to files, reading the code and asking questions about it. Extremely hard to copy a codebase and learn it well enough you can explain it but really easy to do if you wrote it yourself.

I have to wonder how well that analysis code works in practice. for a lot of intro-level (and some mid-level) course assignments, there's only one or two straightforward ways to write the code. sometimes these assignments are just pasting together sample code from the powerpoint with a couple tweaks. I was a TA for a few of these courses, and the correct solutions tended to be very similar. I was only sure students w…

It's completely useless for intro courses. But in my experience, intro courses are completely bimodal for CS: some students just get it and some just don't.

Sure the later can copy their assignments. But once they'll hit a non-trivial assignment or a code review in a more advance class they won't be able to fake it anymore. You are just delaying their transfer to another major. And that gives the CS department one extra course they can collect tuition from and justify hiring TAs for...

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#382
post #376
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> decided to do an oral examination, This really is the best case, but as you note it was 8 students so quite manageable. It requires a little skill on the part of the examiner, but you can quickly find out how much material the student knows with much higher accuracy than other exam formats, in my opinion. One of the skills needed is to be able to make it conversational-feeling and reduce the anxiety of students. Yo…

Orals have a lot of advantages, but they also make it very easy for unconscious bias to come into play, in that all the criteria for grading are soft.

Good point, this is also one of the aspects of skill. There are techniques you can use effectively to mitigate this.

One unfortunate thing is that poorly done, orals can be very uneven.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger problem I see is professors that think "Oh well it's sophisticated AI, it can't make a mistake" and take the results for granted. In one of the twitter thread I saw a screenshot form a professors email where they were mentioning that "X student had 100 more eye movements than Y student" and threatened to fail the entire class. That email blew my mind because it seemed like the professor just didn't know or…

If the email mentioned particular students by name then that in and of itself is a violation (at least in California). We're absolutely not supposed to share any student performance information with anyone other than the student, without permission.

That's federal. FERPA.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#384
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood the concept of cheating . If you don't know the answer to a question and you look it up, that's not cheating, it's research , or at least referring to reference material, which is always permitted in real life. Except for some contrived or rare circumstances someone will now point out. Even the Apollo 11 crew had support. Any professional in any industry is allowed to say: "I don't know" and "I'll…

That only works if the answer can be looked up. Real life isn't always kind enough to only give problems that someone has already solved and published somewhere you can find.

That's only a helpful responds if you believe exams are testing for your ability to synthesis novelty, which seems absurd to me.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#385
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood the concept of cheating . If you don't know the answer to a question and you look it up, that's not cheating, it's research , or at least referring to reference material, which is always permitted in real life. Except for some contrived or rare circumstances someone will now point out. Even the Apollo 11 crew had support. Any professional in any industry is allowed to say: "I don't know" and "I'll…

That only works if the answer can be looked up. Real life isn't always kind enough to only give problems that someone has already solved and published somewhere you can find.

The class should effectively teach you how to make that distinction in a given field/topic. If you didn't pay attention at all, you won't know what to look for or how to figure something out quickly enough to pass. Cheating would be most damaging if the actual answers were shared or similar attacks on the integrity of the test itself.

Knowing how to find or determine the current correct answers yourself is often more useful in the long run than memorizing what amounts to trivia. This is especially true when it comes to open ended and quickly changing fields...

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#386

In case you don't know who Proctorio is: (like me) Apparently it's a supervision software that students are forced to install on their private computer and (as expected) it'll do its worst to invade your privacy and flag "suspicious" things, based on which the university might punish you. "Suspicious" here means wearing glasses [3] or looking around in the room or blinking too much [4] or having eye and/or skin color…

> So it is crucially important that this type of software receives a lot of scrutiny to make sure it works as planned. What's crucially important is that this type of software is BANNED. I now have a new question to ask schools when my kid applies to one.

It's not a trivial problem to solve. The amount of cheating that goes on at the university level is pretty astounding.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> medical doctor you'll have to do a ton of memorisation Which is a load of dingos kidneys. Gate keeping. All the good doctors I've ever been to have a wall of reference material and use it , even if only to show the patient, but it's there and accessible. And besides, it's not like practising medical doctors don't make heaps of mistakes . The number one cause of complications in a medical setting is medical interven…

But parent post is arguing that to become a doctor you need to memorize ungodly amount of things, which is absolutely true. And about that wall of reference material .. yeah, it's usually there to impress patients, most of those books were never touched :) (I'm from family with too many MDs)

It might be true, but I'm arguing it isn't necessarily the best.

We need more doctors, if that means changing the culture within the profession so they're more inclined to use those reference material that would be good thing.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EFF: "...The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) filed a lawsuit today against Proctorio Inc. on behalf of college student Erik Johnson ..." GoFundMe page: "...My name is Ian Linkletter ... wired over $50,000 to Arvay Finlay, LLP, doubling my legal defense fund. John Trueman is joined by Cathie Boies Parker, Q.C., and Mark Underhill..." Different lawsuits?

I think @dang did a faulty merge between two different, but related articles. This was the original article it was from: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26900217

Yikes - I didn't realize there were two distinct lawsuits. I guess I foolishly assumed that they would only shoot themselves in one foot?

I'm not sure what to do now that these threads have gotten blended so thoroughly. Will figure something out.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#389
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me put it this way, asking why you left an employer is fine. Expecting a certain answer for a subjective situation and rejecting an applicant because they didn't give you exactly that answer is not exactly a healthy behavior. I'm here for a job, not to play weird mind games.

Then why ask? All job interviews are weird mind games. My assumption when I'm asked why I left my last employer is that they're looking to second-guess my other answers based on what I say, or checking to see if I'm a disagreeable person who is willing to badmouth somebody generous enough to employ me. This is just taking the latter in the opposite direction.

There are plenty of reasons to move employers that doesn't involve saying that company you were working for is unethical. You could say that you've reached your ceiling and are looking for the next step up. That's a fair one. The company you are leaving may not be able to promote you. You're looking to work on new projects and your current company is just maintaining and/or adding features. That's also fair.

> checking to see if I'm a disagreeable person who is willing to badmouth somebody generous enough to employ me.

Ah, but you see, the guy I originally replied to is checking to see if you're willing to badmouth companies he dislikes. And if you don't, he will dismiss your application. It's an unspoken rule you can violate without ever knowing you're in violation of it and has a huge affect on the outcome of the scenario.

No reasonable interviewer is going to put you in the position of having to cast aspersions on a previous employer. That's a minefield for all sorts of reasons.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need to go after the lawyers who signed off on the notice. That is the only way to get real accountability.

^Astrikes the portion of the law that says anything about responding to all claims "expeditiously", and replaces it with something that accurately represents the severity of the situation(s).^A edit: severity in relation to an actual copyright violation, not possible damages imagined in the accusers theoretical situation if the content was not removed. Some companies might gladly eat a fine if only 1/100 people chall…

The wording of the DMCA is irrelevant. All court officers take an oath to behave ethically. Submitting fraudulent documents because you're too lazy to exercise due diligence verifying the claim should result in meaningful punishment.
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