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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#381

Post by luxuryballs »

shireboy wrote: post #172
whiddershins wrote: post #89

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

I haven't read Feser, but I do agree there is a huge gap between, say, the theology and level of discourse of C.S.Lewis and Tolkein and popular megachurch pastors. Culturally it's interesting to me - all but the most die-hard atheist will likely see some value and truth in Tolkein's work even if they disagree with his theology and choice of church. They may not agree, but would respect him. Where are today's Inklings…

Speaking of CS Lewis, everyone should read his cosmic trilogy. It’s so astounding that I’m surprised it didn’t get the attention that the Narnia books did, and the third book is on par with 1984 and Brave New World, written as a modern fairy tale yet also as a sci-fi in the tradition of HG Wells.

It’s such a good series and probably paints a better understanding of what a fallen world means and what a proper relationship with God is like, yet using sci-fi literalism instead of religious dogma.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#382

Post by jwalgenbach »

bobthechef wrote: post #258
whiddershins wrote: post #89

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

Oh, yes. Quoting Fulton Sheen: "There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be." In this case, I would include the majority of Catholics who are oblivious today about the very basics of what the Church believes, much less why, and practice it seldomly on one hand or cliquishly on the other. When t…

"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be."

Oh, that's crap. There are more than 100 victims of child sexual abuse by Catholic clergy where the Church itself covered up the crime. You can play with definitions however you want, but that is not a misperception of the Church, but a realistic view of the actions of the Church.

I've been Catholic, and the Church exists to extend the existence of the Church. Any other action is in service to that goal.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#383

Post by analog31 »

beaconstudios wrote: post #135
analog31 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a rhetoric out there, that "everybody needs a religion," and that identifies any vehemently held ideology or close-knit social group as a religion. It's tautological. This is exacerbated by the difficulty of forming a general definition of "religion" that isn't riddled with exceptions. Defining "religion" broadly enough to include all religions makes it end up including everything else too. But "your…

replace "religion" with "philosophy" and it reads better - after all, religion is just philosophy.

Indeed, but "your group is a philosophy too" doesn't have the same rhetorical impact.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#384

Post by undefined1 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #145

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

I agree, but beware that many people end up filling a religion shaped hole with other things. look at how many of our fellow atheists have joined the church of social justice. adhering to a new kind of religion and dogma. things you can't say, heretics who must be cast out, good vs evil, original sin, preachers, zealots, self flagellation. it's all there, except for a path to redemption.

https://reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeling-in-the-church-of-soci...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#385

Post by umvi »

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #357
umvi wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll have a broken moral system imposed on you either way then, if not by a church than by the shifting values of politics and society. You'll never derive an absolute moral code by yourself, you are forced to accept the changing values of society or risk being ostracized. Most people just allow their morals to shift with society rather than dig in their heels or try to develop an absolute moral code.

> You'll have a broken moral system imposed on you either way I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how moral systems work, one that is perpetuated by the church. In Christianity, there is a specific "source" of morality, one that's (supposedly) infallible and unquestionable. This leads to problems when the infallible-unquestionable source of morality endorses things like slavery [1]: if it's unquestionab…

> My mother (Christian) couldn't get around the idea that she had no right to impose her perceived morality on another

I mean... you probably can't get around that idea either. Or do you believe that any and all of your rights can and should be taken away if a majority of the people agree you shouldn't have those rights anymore (even if the majority are religious nutjobs who decide you should not have a right to consume alcohol because it's immoral)?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#386

Post by city41 »

ryneandal wrote: post #62
gabythenerd wrote: post #4

I am impressed that numbers are that high, looking from the outside the US doesn't look particularly religious. It might be lower still, I don't think young people answer cellphone surveys all that much.

Much of the heartland is _very_ religious. Drive across the country and in the flyover states you'll see A LOT of anti-abortion/sin billboards.

It's not just the "flyover" states, its more rural areas. I've seem many religious billboards in Oregon and California.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#387

Post by awicz »

dawg- wrote: post #336
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

I became an atheist/agnostic as a teenager and now in my late 20's I have slowly come back to religion. So I am really interested in this topic. My comment is specifically about online atheist communities, because I think they are often toxic to both religion and to atheism itself. A lot of these communities are hyper-focused on fundamentalism, to their own detriment. These online atheists communities can be very unf…

This is such a refreshing comment. It's far better to engage in dialogue with those whom you disagree in order to understand their position opposed to assuming they are evil, stupid, or otherwise sub-human. Wouldn't it be wonderful if such an approach was applied not only to religious conversations but those of politics, work disputes, conflicts with your significant other...everything?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#388

Post by pbourke »

api wrote: post #240
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

I've talked to people of the younger generations (in the USA) who are not even aware that there is anything other than fundamentalist literalism. Either the Earth is 6000 years old and Jonah literally rode in the belly of a whale, or there is no God. This sets up a situation where you have to be willfully ignorant or lie to defend the existence of God, since this stuff is bollocks. In reality fundamentalist literalis…

> In reality fundamentalist literalism is a relatively recent (19th century) theological development

I was under the impression that it began with the Protestant Reformation - specifically Calvinism (16th century)

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#389

Post by cmrdporcupine »

Robotbeat wrote: post #153
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #46

Having the Church community while growing up was great. But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre. Frankly, growing up in the church left me with a broken moral code. It was only once I left it in my teens and had to work things out for myself that I feel like I could properly ground myself ethically. Having a moral system imposed on you can do that.

Better to join a church/synagogue/whathaveyou that DOESN’T require total philosophical adherence. There’s a similar problem in political circles, as politics has in many cases (especially last 5 years) replaced religion. Adherence is mandated by many, but the healthiest political circles/communities do not require strict adherence but instead allow healthy debate. And in part, it is a difference in tradition. In Minn…

"Better to join a church/synagogue/whathaveyou that DOESN’T require total philosophical adherence."

I'm a philosophical materialist and I don't believe in any kind of deity or supernatural world. There is no "church" that would have any place for someone like me, other than maybe the Unitarians, and, well, honestly, they're not that interesting.

I hung out in Marxist study groups and Trotskyist groupings for a while in my 20s. That was my replacement for a bit. :-)

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#390

Post by nicbou »

undefined1 wrote: post #384
toomuchtodo wrote: post #145

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

I agree, but beware that many people end up filling a religion shaped hole with other things. look at how many of our fellow atheists have joined the church of social justice. adhering to a new kind of religion and dogma. things you can't say, heretics who must be cast out, good vs evil, original sin, preachers, zealots, self flagellation. it's all there, except for a path to redemption. https://reason.com/2020/06/29…

I'm not sure if it makes sense to connect those two. Is there any more political zealotry among atheists than among the religious?
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