Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies • Hacker News Board

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#381

Post by dmitri_ravinoff » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 12:01 PM UTC

lbschenkel wrote: post #330

null_object wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think pride and patriotism means you’re overstating your case here. Indeed as you say, a subgroup of the largest Swedish private banks own the ID system in Sweden - for profit, and without any serious democratic oversight. Edit: I forgot to add that the system allows these private banks to see into almost every aspect of a person’s life: where they shop, where they are , who shares their household and so on. Almost…

I definitely agree. The system could certainly be improved. My gripe with BankID is that it's a monopoly and it's tied to having a bank account. It's easy to fall into the cracks. For example, I know first hand more than one foreigner that moved to Sweden and couldn't do basically anything online because they didn't have BankID and couldn't get one because they needed to visit a bank branch and have an appointment, a…

> It also forces you to have an Android or iPhone, and basically have a relationship with these foreign tech giants and accept their policies in order to be a "digital citizen" in your own country. If they ban your account for any reason, and you lose access to the store without any recourse, and you can't install the app, you are basically SOL.

For me this is mind-boggling. Could you please elaborate or link to a resource on that? Do the respective apps work on rooted phones? Regarding the Bank ID: I worked as an intern in Sweden in the 2002 and this sucked already then. As a foreigner you got an ID that somehow "almost" matched the normal way the number was generated (an offset on the YOB if I remember correctly). It was always an interesting experience to find out if an office/application supported such foreigner ID or not. Hopefully this got fixed in the meantime. After all my yearly letter from pensionsmyndigheten is at least partially translated in multiple languages. Good for me as I lost almost all my Swedish.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#382

Post by DocTomoe » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

mda wrote: post #354

DocTomoe wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to be precise here. Firstly "accepting a law" implies - in western liberal democracies - a legislative process in which a law is proposed and accepted by some kind of parliament. This is not what happened here - in Switzerland, laws can be given to the population directly by non-parliamentary, non-governmental organisations in referenda, which then become binding. The law you are referring to was accepted by…

Hey, "But only in public!" Are you really defending imprisoning Woman to their homes by maybe robbing them of their few privileges? I am utterly disgusted how they frame this bs.

Does the anti-masking law imprison these women, or are they being held captive (against Swiss law) by their husbands/fathers/brothers?

If it's the latter, that's a reason for them to seek help from the authorities.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#383

Post by lbschenkel » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 12:19 PM UTC

dmitri_ravinoff wrote: post #381

lbschenkel wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely agree. The system could certainly be improved. My gripe with BankID is that it's a monopoly and it's tied to having a bank account. It's easy to fall into the cracks. For example, I know first hand more than one foreigner that moved to Sweden and couldn't do basically anything online because they didn't have BankID and couldn't get one because they needed to visit a bank branch and have an appointment, a…

> It also forces you to have an Android or iPhone, and basically have a relationship with these foreign tech giants and accept their policies in order to be a "digital citizen" in your own country. If they ban your account for any reason, and you lose access to the store without any recourse, and you can't install the app, you are basically SOL. For me this is mind-boggling. Could you please elaborate or link to a re…

Maybe you got a "coordination number" instead of a "person number"? You only get the latter if you are expected to live in the country for longer than a year. The former "confuses" a lot of people and websites, which are not fully prepared to deal with it.

> Could you please elaborate or link to a resource on that?

Not sure what exactly you're looking for. There are 3 types of BankID: "on file", "on card" and "mobile". The first two are seldomly used and not all banks offer it (mine doesn't). I believe that most sites only support the mobile version. The mobile app cannot be sideloaded on iOS, and requires Google Play Services on Android. (For now it works on rooted phones. For now.)

Although technically minded people can still find a way to sideload the Android app without having to have a Google account, this is far from being mainstream. For most people you have to agree with Apple or Google's terms and have an account with them. If you're banned and lose access to the store, you can't install BankID any longer. It's not fun to live in Sweden and not have access to BankID.

I don't like the idea that you have to establish an asymmetrical relationship with a foreign conglomerate to be able to identify yourself in your own country and use digital services.

I think that having competition at least opens up the possibility that one of the players will introduce a mechanism that does not rely (solely) on Apple/Google technology. For example, a simple hardware token could work.

Regarding IDs for foreigners, I believe that the EU cracked down on Sweden and at least the government websites allow other European digital IDs nowadays. At least the option shows up in the list of authentication choices, but since I can't use that flow I cannot state how well it works in practice.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#384

Post by soco » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 12:28 PM UTC

_nalply wrote: post #171

Shacklz wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely why I voted against it. When I first heard about it I was all for it - until I realized that the plan was to let private companies handle it. Complete no go, glad it got rejected.

I also voted against it. It's a pity that I couldn't approve the e-ID issued by the government.

Which is now very clearly the only way to move forward, so the vote was useful.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#385

Post by soco » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 12:33 PM UTC

nickez wrote: post #70

esja wrote: post #8

Quite a few people who voted against this did so purely because they didn’t want private companies controlling the system. If the proposal had been for the government to issue and control the identities, it may well have passed.

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my r…

The fact that is technically possible was never argued. Swiss voted against banks controlling their entire lives' data, not believing it was a condition to get their bills digitally (which by the way work fine in Switzerland as well).

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#386

Post by m_mueller » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

aranelsurion wrote: post #173

archsurface wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only for people who moved there, knowing full well that they were moving into a different culture, and that as a minority they would have to adapt to local norms. I've lived in a number of countries on various continents, and I have never expected the locals to adopt my way of doing things - I think that would be utterly bizarre. If you go there without a degree of humility and willingness to adapt you're a colonist.

While I agree with the premise, I don't see how this specific event ties to your argument. A simple Google search shows that the referendum passed with 57% of the voters support, so that leaves us with a 43% who thinks it's a bad idea for one reason or another. Since around 5% of Switzerland is muslim, one could argue building minarets is not such a scandalous idea for Swiss voters.

This is quite a simplistic view I think. Neither a 'yes' nor a 'no' to this initiative says that a voter thinks of it as scandalous either way. Maybe there should be more options to answer such votes though, like "don't care", "don't understand", "yes/no, and I feel so strongly about this to use my yearly joker" - but at the end you don't wanna overcomplicate the political process.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#387

Post by Bayart » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

herbst wrote: post #360

Bayart wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So, while spain sends soldiers to die in Afghanistan, or the UK wastes decades of development on a grand EU project, or US citizens get spied on by their own govt via Patriot Act.... CH is just sitting pretty, doing its thing. Arguing about every little detail to exhaustion. Switzerland can afford to do this because it's surrounded by countries that protect it from the real world. It doesn't have a real foreign poli…

I am not sure what dangers you imply here.

America to the West, Africa to the South, Russia and China to the East. Constant tensions at the borders of Europe. To me the neighborhood looks incredibly dangerous and increasingly so. On that subject, the lackadaisical attitude of some EU nations towards defense is bewildering (looking at you Germany).

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#388

Post by dmitri_ravinoff » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

lbschenkel wrote: post #383

dmitri_ravinoff wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also forces you to have an Android or iPhone, and basically have a relationship with these foreign tech giants and accept their policies in order to be a "digital citizen" in your own country. If they ban your account for any reason, and you lose access to the store without any recourse, and you can't install the app, you are basically SOL. For me this is mind-boggling. Could you please elaborate or link to a re…

Maybe you got a "coordination number" instead of a "person number"? You only get the latter if you are expected to live in the country for longer than a year. The former "confuses" a lot of people and websites, which are not fully prepared to deal with it. > Could you please elaborate or link to a resource on that? Not sure what exactly you're looking for. There are 3 types of BankID: "on file", "on card" and "mobile…

Tack så mycket! Your detailed explanation cleared things up.

>I don't like the idea that you have to establish an asymmetrical relationship with a foreign conglomerate to be able to identify yourself in your own country and use digital services.

The general acceptance of this in Swedish society boggles my mind. But hey, I am not a Swedish citizen, so it's not my job to tell people what to do.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#389

Post by Bayart » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

cambaceres wrote: post #362

Bayart wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So, while spain sends soldiers to die in Afghanistan, or the UK wastes decades of development on a grand EU project, or US citizens get spied on by their own govt via Patriot Act.... CH is just sitting pretty, doing its thing. Arguing about every little detail to exhaustion. Switzerland can afford to do this because it's surrounded by countries that protect it from the real world. It doesn't have a real foreign poli…

USA is basically surrounded by large oceans and they still spend by far the most on defence.

The US's military expansion (and by extension its defense budget) is directly correlated to its domestic industrial expansion and its need to keep supply lines flowing. They basically spend a lot because they need to jump over two oceans to afford the economic model they chose. That wasn't the case when the US was still content with self-isolation, before the Spanish–American War.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#390

Post by Bayart » Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #325

Bayart wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So, while spain sends soldiers to die in Afghanistan, or the UK wastes decades of development on a grand EU project, or US citizens get spied on by their own govt via Patriot Act.... CH is just sitting pretty, doing its thing. Arguing about every little detail to exhaustion. Switzerland can afford to do this because it's surrounded by countries that protect it from the real world. It doesn't have a real foreign poli…

Switzerland used to be surrounded by Nazi Germany on pretty much all sides. They remain independent because they are a mountainous country that set its defenses up cleverly so that any invasion would be a pyrrhic victory at best.

Most of the population lives in the flatter parts of Switzerland, which are of no real concern for invasions from the West and North. The linguistic border runs inside Switzerland because the geographic border does as well.