Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#381

Post by ahelwer » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #248

A12-B wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are quite literally not within their right to stop unionisation, as that is illegal. Also it looks bad because it is bad. btw, the line between 'disincentivising' and 'forcing' is decided arbitrarily by you. If they send text messages, block traffic lights, and screw with people's mailboxes, i think amazon crosses the line.

Definitely not illegal. You think Amazon, one of the largest companies in the world, will engage in any anti-union campaign without consulting their lawyers on what's right and what's not? It's ok if this is doesn't sit well on you. As I said in the parent comment, if unions were easy they wouldn't make sense. Things companies that have unions or are dealing with unionization efforts can do [1]: - Describe the good f…

> You think Amazon, one of the largest companies in the world, will engage in any anti-union campaign without consulting their lawyers on what's right and what's not?

This is staggeringly naive about both how large companies & the legal system operate.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#382

Post by kick » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #168

lovegoblin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Teen Vogue has plenty of solid journalism.

I'm genuinely not sure if this is sarcasm or not. Teen Vogue is certainly surprisingly serious, but my standard for "solid journalism" involves some attempt at neutrality and objectivity as opposed to hyper-partisan ideology marketed to children. To be quite clear, the overall modern media landscape is highly partisan and sensationalist; Teen Vogue mostly only stands out in that they're marketing their divisive ideol…

Journalism was rarely feigning objectiveness: during the 1920s through the 1970s, some of the strongest voices in favor of labor were journalists. "Neutrality" is largely a construct, or meme, that has been pushed by Rupert Murdoch since he founded his "news" network. Naturally, his own properties are nowhere near objective, despite some people claiming WSJ magically escapes bias.

Everything is naturally biased, the only distinction is whether an entity is open about their bias. This goes for anything: whether it was the New York Times and FOX hawking for nearly every war during the 2000s, or it was Newsweek favoring MLK Jr. and Life describing his speeches with phrases like "demagogic slander" during the 1960s, everyone's naturally got an opinion. This doesn't stop applying when writing about a subject.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#383

Post by leesalminen » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #343

sudosteph wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's destroyed, another retailer will take it's place. I worked at Target back in the day, and I still remember the onboarding videos they showed us. Half of it was ridiculous drivel about how much they love employees and support LGBT and minorities, and the other half was literal anti-union propaganda and fear-mongering. When it came right down to it, Target is just as happy to treat human workers as disposable t…

I used to do extensive data science work with various retailers, including Target, Walmart, and Amazon. Compared to Walmart, Target is absolutely abysmal on many fronts. The amount of wasted fuel caused by their horrifically inept logistics makes Walmart look like the Sierra Club. And they were the model for substituting low-impact inclusion messaging in place of actually treating workers decently. I live near Boulde…

I also live near Boulder (Lyons what’s up!) and also had a really hard time understanding all the vitriol towards building a Wal-Mart when Target is packed day in, day out.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#384

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #378

sudosysgen wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions do not rent seek. They provide value to society via higher wages and act as a counterbalance to externalities from capital. They are indeed not a cure, but the cure to the symptoms we are seeing is nothing short of a total overhaul of the capitalist system, which is both not politically feasible, and requires something like unions to make politically feasible to begin with. That is because by definition such a…

"There were and are workers’ unions in communist countries." Most independent unions in those countries were/are destroyed. The "unions" in China, etc. or the former USSR were/are essentially arms of the Stalinist Communist Parties, and rarely if ever have any political independence or ability to oppose the employer (the state, or a company that the state has given privileges to).

I completely agree with you, but I think you might have replied to the wrong post.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#385

Post by TimBurr » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

jokethrowaway wrote: post #264

jandrese wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally people create downward pressure on prices by not buying the product when it becomes overpriced. However with healthcare there is a captive market. Are you not going to get a cast put on a broken leg because the doctor wants to charge too much? Are you going to just opt out of cancer treatments and die? Healthcare is an area where market forces are inherently perverted because people often don't have a choice…

You still have a choice between competing hospitals / doctors in a system where prices are not inflated for insurances' catalogues.

That would be true iff prices were disclosed upfront and the pricing model was clear. I had a hospital experience recently where the surgeon provided one bill, the hospital a second, and the anesthesiologist a third.

Only the surgeon's pricing was available ahead of time. The hospital provided an invoice at the time of surgery, marked as "SUBJECT TO CHANGE". The anesthesiologist himself didn't know how much his services would cost.

Three weeks later, we're still watching invoices and insurance claims roll in.

Medical tourism is a direct testament to inflated charges as a systematic problem. Finding a hospital with non-inflated costs requires crossing international borders.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#386

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #346

sudosysgen wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions do not rent seek. They provide value to society via higher wages and act as a counterbalance to externalities from capital. They are indeed not a cure, but the cure to the symptoms we are seeing is nothing short of a total overhaul of the capitalist system, which is both not politically feasible, and requires something like unions to make politically feasible to begin with. That is because by definition such a…

There were and are workers’ unions in communist countries. They didn’t always have their worker’ best interests in mind. Often they were a tool of the communist state to control workers. In addition sometimes you had student movements pitted against workers’ unions and so on. Exploitation or at the minimum the potential for it exists in every economic system. It’s not a feature exclusive to capitalism as much as peop…

I never said that we should install Soviet socialism/state-capitalism, it's not a good system.

Workers unions in socialist countries were basically illegal, there was only one legally allowed union pretty much. In the Soviet Union the role of labour unions were mostly for the state to resolve interpersonal problems, and in theory to allow the state to receive feedback from employees to optimize production, but not in practice due to dysfunctions because of the broken political and economic framework.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#387

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

simsla wrote: post #331

lotsofpulp wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Other companies treat FC staff like shit too" is not an excuse. How is this not an excuse? Most people would switch to Walmart/Target/Bestbuy or any other retailer if the price on Amazon is higher.

It's not just about wages. I think Amazon has actually made great strides by raising their minimum wages to $15/h. According to US stats the monetary benefit from unionising is about +11% on average. By offering twice the federal minimum, it's possible that Amazon is already above that. Now, you can argue that minimum wage should be higher still, but that's a separate discussion. I don't think we should pretend that…

>which is why I think this needs to be approached in a structural way.

The answer is federal legislation. How break time, overtime after certain # of work hours in a day, parental leave.

If we want people to have a certain quality of life at work, I don't see any purpose directing any energy at certain large employers. All efforts should be direct to politicians, who we can vote in, to provide that quality of life at work.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#388

Post by throwanem » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

rland wrote: post #355

jrochkind1 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was probably made by an anti-union consulting firm they've hired. They don't do union-busting in house, they hire the experts.

Pinkerton entering the graphic design biz.

In 1874, apparently, with the invention of the wanted poster: https://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/6296

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#389

Post by proverbialbunny » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

Does anyone have an alternative site they go to to buy household goods than amazon.com? Mostly kitchen supplies.

Amazon often sells items lower quality than Walmart. It sucks and it feels like they have a monopoly. I'd rather shop anywhere else.

edit: Maybe https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/ ? I haven't bought anything there, but I might try it if there are not better recommendations.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#390

Post by cool_dude85 » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #370

flyt wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions need more than a Discord to organize. They may need to compensate union leadership for time taken to organize away from their work duties, pay for events, pay for mailers and other communications infrastructure, and of course pay for professionals like labor lawyers. No union will have much luck performing collective bargaining against Amazon without working alongside experienced lawyers. These costs don't hav…

> pay for events What events? If it's to discuss a certain issue, that can be virtual and almost free. If it's a social event, meh, there are enough of those already and people can self-organize them. Hell for $500/month I could organize social events where everyone goes to Michelin 3-star restaurants every month and rants over gourmet dinners about their bosses. > pay for mailers and other communications infrastruct…

>If it's just a town hall to discuss a certain issue, that can be virtual.

Virtual isn't the same as free.

>Although this may sound a bit naive I feel like $500/person/month sounds like there is some massive inefficiency in use of resources.

Nobody knows what the union dues will be if the union wins, but they will not be 500 per month. It might be a fair guess that they're 500 per year. About 20 per check if you get paid biweekly. The dues will be decided on by union members through some kind of democratic process.