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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

nytimes.com

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Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#381

Post by imtringued »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #131
DC-3 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it ever occur to you at all that people might value education for its own sake and not for potential financial yield alone?

With the costs required to obtain an education as they are, we are well beyond valuing education simply for the sake of valuing education. If it requires years and years to pay off, then we absolutely must look at it like an investment.

Yes and once your first cash cow investment (STEM degree) has paid for itself you can go on and do any liberal arts degree that you want.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#382

Post by imtringued »

WalterBright wrote: post #348
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

I've been regularly bemused by people graduating with a degree in X, and then bitterly complaining that nobody told them that the pay for X was very low. I wondered how can one go through 4 years of college majoring in X, and never once google: "starting salaries for major X".

It's not bemusing if those people took on debt.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#383

Post by imtringued »

Camillo wrote: post #137
awillen wrote: post #7

I think this is generally a good thing. I believe there are really two positive things that can come out of going to college - either you get a name-brand degree that opens doors and gets your resume looked at, or you get useful skills that enable you to go down a particular career path (e.g. CS degree). Obviously in some cases it'll be both. The reality is it's really tough to make any case that a humanities degree…

But many of the PhDs minted at first-tier colleges have no career prospects but to teach at second-tier ones, and so forth. You need lots of students down the chain to keep them employed; it's basically a Ponzi scheme. So you've got problems on two sides: lots of people getting into debt for no reason on one end, and lots of disaffected pseudo-elites on the other. A recipe for destabilization.

Isn't a PhD a research degree? Isn't the goal of that degree to generate useful research? Yes, there are some (meager) employment benefits afterwards but the PhD itself is your academic career.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#384

Post by blaser-waffle »

rsj_hn wrote: post #355
ido wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For comparison in Germany and Austria public universities are mostly free or close to it (a few €100s per year in misc fees).

On the other hand, the majority of US college kids would not be able to get into university in Germany nor Austria. You are comparing apples and oranges. In the US, the best students get scholarship and aid and don't need to pay either (or at least have the option of free education unless they insist on going to a school that does not offer them scholarship). The poorest students don't need to pay. The middle pays fo…

Yeah not sure why this is downvoted. The US has WAYYYY more colleges and Universities, and in many cases there is no filter on admissions for them. If you can pony up 3 letters of recommendation and a cheque, you're in.

Many of these kids shouldn't go to Uni, and end up taking 5+ years to graduate.

In Germany most of these kids would go to a trade school or apprenticeship.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#385

Post by albntomat0 »

kbos87 wrote: post #300
albntomat0 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are your thoughts on standardized tests as the most standard (not sure what a better word is here) comparison between applicants? I recognize that a lot has been written about the SAT/etc being biased, but high school grades and "experiences" are worse (how does one compare what a "B" in Calculus or club president actually means, in all high schools across the US??).

I agree with you that comparing applicants objectively is a tough nut to crack. I don’t know the right answer but I would imagine looking at as diverse a set of inputs as possible is a good starting point; I could also see universities coming up with some means of weighing inputs differently to not let any one input (like standardized test scores) be an arbitrary disqualifier. But until that’s the case, I don’t think…

I definitely agree with individuals taking actions within the system to optimize their chances is fine (e.g. targeting colleges that don't require standardized testing if the applicant doesn't do well on those tests, but not things like the fake sports recruiting that was in the news a year or so ago).

I may be biased as I did well on standardized tests. I have family members that volunteer to do admissions interviews as alumni of a very major name university. They both mention how gamified some applicants are taking the process, with some high school students' parents essentially buying them research opportunities and other experiences to talk about on their applications. While standardized testing is influenced by family wealth and resources, I'm convinced standardized tests (SAT/ACT/AP/etc) are the least influenced part of college admissions, and thus should remain in some form.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#386

Post by foolinaround »

mywittyname wrote: post #271
foolinaround wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while communication skills are essential, needing a theatre program is a stretch. Students should just join a toastmasters

I was required to take public speaking as part of my degree.

even this is redundant with its exorbitant cost. there are orgs doing this already, allow a membership and its completion of x speeches to count, etc.

when we are paring costs, its best to keep the colleges to the very bare minimum of what they do well.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#387

Post by kop316 »

Noos wrote: post #214
kop316 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found Community Colleges to be the perfect place for this actually. Community College classes are MUCH cheaper, and are even more so if you don't take the class for credit (where I went, tuition was $20 for a 1 credit class for non-degree seekers. No that was not a typo, it was Twenty USD for the entire class). Community College professors don't do research, so they are usually focused much more on teaching cl…

They generally aren't that high quality in terms of classes, and the humanities they offer are "transfer credits" when they aren't practical skills. I mean that there's little chance to go to a community college that has a strong English section, or gives any more than the basics of history or psychology. CCs are mostly there either for cheap transfer credits, or technical programs for local industry; things like cad…

> They generally aren't that high quality in terms of classes, and the humanities they offer are "transfer credits" when they aren't practical skills.

There were a lot of classes I saw (and some I took) at Universities that were just as bad, if not worse.

I would say they have a wide variety, much like universities. I have generally had a pretty good experience doing it for non-credit (i.e. education for it's own sake).

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#388

Post by mcguire »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #329
mcguire wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" We were teaching kids to read, ethics, morals, long before we had PhDs. " I think I'd like some evidence for that.

Is that not obvious? Via the ancient Greek schools of philosophy for example?

IIUC, the literacy rate was for most of the Mediterranean world was around 20%, specifically excluding slaves and women. Which is pretty high, actually.

The Greek schools of philosophy were taught by the equivalent of PhDs.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#389

Post by mcguire »

yTh0 wrote: post #324
mcguire wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" We were teaching kids to read, ethics, morals, long before we had PhDs. " I think I'd like some evidence for that.

The first PhD was awarded in France in 1150 CE. Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and even Pre-Columbus America had complex cultural customs, art, math, engineering, medicine, language they handed down generationally. University as we know it is a relic of Medieval European tradition.

I've seen the literacy rate of medieval Europe estimated at 10%. Ethics and morals were being taught roughly the same way they are now: you believe what your parents believed. Medieval medicine was being taught from translations of Arabic copies of Galen.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#390

Post by pisteoff »

imtringued wrote: post #372
pisteoff wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people are learning how to value educational degrees based on what they'll actually yield financially and making decisions accordingly. So why bother learning about the basis of human thought and culture when instead we should be learning about how to make the next iPhone app that won't matter in 6 months. Anything to maximize those profits, right? People be damned, it's the bottom line that matters! Got it. Only a…

>So why bother learning about the basis of human thought and culture when instead we should be learning about how to make the next iPhone app that won't matter in 6 months. Anything to maximize those profits, right? People be damned, it's the bottom line that matters! Got it. Yes, the bottom line matters because it's paying for your education. If there is no bottom line you will have no education. Consider this, back…

This represents so much of what is wrong in the US right now.
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