Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 974 posts

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#381

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

irrational wrote: post #171
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

> I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year.

I just want to point out how incredibly, incredibly rare that is for anyone to have that experience in the US today, where according to you:

1. You were able to graduate debt free, and since you say you had no debt "through scholarships and grants", I'm taking that to mean your parents didn't pay for your college. While that is certainly possible (e.g. some colleges offer free rides for very top students), it is VERY rare.

2. You intend to save nothing for your children's education. That is not only exceedingly rare, pretty much all financial aid packages expect/require a certain amount of parental contributions. You better hope your kids get lots of scholarships and grants, otherwise they won't be going to college.

Personally, I went to a top US university. I had some grants and scholarships but my parents still contributed a good part to my first 2 years, and I graduated with considerable but manageable debt. I've worked in software jobs over the past 2 decades, including 1 company where my stock options were worth a considerable amount, so I've saved a lot. I work considerably more than 40 hours a week, so honestly I'm quite envious of your "20-30 hours a week" story - I don't know any job where you can work that little and still get paid that well. I see a very large portion of my salary every year go to healthcare and retirement, and as I am childless I don't have to save for my kids education.

I mean, I'm doing quite well, and I still have anxiety about all the things I need to save for. I can't imagine making a more median-level salary, with today's cost of education, and with kids, and not being much more stressed at the prospect of having to handle everything financially.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#382

Post by refurb »

benrbray wrote: post #284
refurb wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That explains the net flow of Americans immigrating to Europe and not the reverse.

I assume you're being glib, since it's been mentioned elsewhere that more Europeans move to America than the reverse. In which case... You're missing the point, which is that the higher baseline QoL means that it's better to be poor / middle class in Germany or UK than it is to be poor / middle class in the United States. With regard to immigration rates, there are many factors to consider: Yes, some small percentage…

Well never know the true motivation of people who immigrate, but the type of visa can give a lot of insight (school, work, family).

As someone who immigrated to the US and can give my 2 cents - it’s opportunity. Instead of staying in my home country struggling for a job, I can come to the US which is the heart of the industry and has a ton of high paying jobs working a big problems that matter.

And as for US people not immigrating because of their old parents and healthcare, the US does have socialized medicine for the elderly.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#383

Post by winston_smith »

jacobr1 wrote: post #369
winston_smith wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you too can go live in the bush and do all those things until you get a toothache, parasites and lose a few kids to infant mortality.

Depending upon where one is in the world, even in large wilderness areas, the volume of game has decreased significantly from the pre-agricultural era. Still wouldn't trade a more-abundant bush with modernity, but it is interesting to consider the relative conditions that would make it easier historically.

It's true, hunter gatherer societies have a way of getting out competed.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#384

Post by aprdm »

Izikiel43 wrote: post #326
arcticbull wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

Canadians are kind in a shit position. Real state is stupidly expensive everywhere where you would like to live (Greater Vancouver, Greater Toronto, Ottawa is getting more expensive), and salaries are not keeping up at all. For example, cost of living in Vancouver and Seattle, disregarding the currency, is more or less the same, however in Vancouver it's like you earn 2k less than Seattle for an entry level Big 4 pos…

House/condo have very different prices. You can totally buy a condo anywhere in Vancouver with a software engineer salary of 120k+ which is very doable for senior positions..

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#385

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

ulfw wrote: post #264
irrational wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

Yea I am sorry but earning millions for 20 hours of work a week isn't normal in any kind of job I've seen. So count your blessings and luck. Normal this ain't.

Agreed - a lot of the parts of his story I thought "OK, that sounds extremely rare, but possible", but the working "20-30 hours a week" bit? Where the hell is that? Do people at FAANGs honestly work 4-6 hours a day 5 days a week?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#386

Post by loosescrews »

atom_arranger wrote: post #371
ahupp wrote: post #222

Major US tech companies earn a profit-per-employee of $200-400k[0]. That's across every employee, so depending on how you attribute value the profit-per-SWE is much higher. That gives a lot of headroom to drive up salaries when competing for hires, and in part sets the market price. I suspect that low European software salaries are just a function of low profitability of European software companies. e.g, spotify is (…

This makes the most sense. Ultimately an employee cannot have a company paying them more than the value they generate. The value engineers for US companies generate is higher than the value engineers for EU/CAD companies generate, so they have a better bargaining position. This is probably because US companies have a bigger market to start in, and have been more successful at expanding into other markets (including E…

Parent mentioned SAP and Spotify as examples of large software companies earning less per employee than US software companies. Both of these companies have good penetration in the US market. SAP has great global market penetration. There is something else besides market going on.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#387

Post by aprdm »

aantix wrote: post #277
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

>I have worked 20 years in the same job Very different. I cannot imagine staying anymore more than two years - aren't you bored?

How do you learn if you don't have to maintain what you wrote after two years...? Also, creating connections and really understanding a company/business is really fun IMO.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#388

Post by [deleted] »

filleduchaos wrote: post #377
xyzelement wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> As opposed to the current system, which is...not destroying society? I guess people can have different definitions of "destroying society." I grew up in the USSR where you literally lacked physical stuff in your life that people in the rest of the world took for granted decades prior. A huge contributor to that was that people's work was rewarded on a metric other than their productive output, as measured by what…

> I grew up in the USSR where you literally lacked physical stuff in your life that people in the rest of the world took for granted decades prior. Define "rest of the world" because for the time period when the USSR was in existence, my part of the world was either actively being colonised or foundering in the neocolonialist wake of independence. And that's the crux of it, isn't it? The world's foremost capitalist s…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#389

Post by aprdm »

xwdv wrote: post #278
pavlov wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a European living in USA working for a FAANG. Frankly, my assessment is exactly the opposite from yours. United States is the country that's most likely to go to shit. All of us wealthy professionals here are sitting on a powder keg of inequality and delusional politics, and nobody will be decoupled from it when it blows up. I plan to stay for a few more years, then return to my safe North European home country w…

Inequality doesn’t really matter as much as people think. What inequality does is ensure that there will always be two markets of consumers: one that needs goods at low prices and one that can afford higher prices for luxury goods. As long as the lower price market exists, hoarding sufficient wealth guarantees you’ll be able to at least afford the minimum standard of living, allowing you to safely retire. If everyone…

lol. It doesn't matter much if you're not the one in the lower bracket.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#390

Post by throwaway894345 »

KronisLV wrote: post #231
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

That does sound like a pretty stress-free way to live! That said, living in Europe doesn't always equal good living conditions and stability - it depends on the particular country you're in as well. My net salary is just over 1000€ per month as a software dev. My living expenses eat up around half of that. If a quick search turns up that in USA the median salary for a dev is around 100k$ per year ( https://money.usne…

I considered moving to France for a few years (from the US), but I was shocked to find it would be a 40% pay cut, even after factoring in all of the healthcare and other expenses we Americans enjoy. And the cost of living is a fair bit higher in France to boot.

Now that companies are cozying up to remote work, I think I’ll jist do more frequent 3 month trips and work in the evenings when I run out of vacation days. Then I can keep my cushy American salary and afford to travel, avoid dealing with VISAs, and France get my cost of living / tourism money without me taking a Frenchman’s job. Seems like a better arrangement all around.

Post reply on HN