I did quite well by measuring "overall area of ground level windows".
It is almost enough just to go by number of floors. Two or less? It's a school (except for a couple examples).
School or Prison
381–390 of 497 posts
Re: School or Prison
#382Earlier quoted context omitted.
>nothing can be “centered around” anything Not quite sure what you're getting at here but insofar as progressive education was an explicit philosophy reflected in policies and actions, it was centered. >But most schools are not organized that way, and there’s only so much one teacher can do to buck the system. As it was, I got fired from that particular job after two years, and it wasn’t because I was too strict, cer…
It was “centered on” those things, not “around”.
Ah! Perhaps if my English teacher had been more of a hardcore disciplinarian...
Re: School or Prison
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
High-end office buildings cost massively more to build. Also plenty of them put employees in a very aesthetically pleasing well-lit panopticon with open-plan seating. I much prefer my dingy fluorescent-lit office that has a door that closes. (And I turn of the fluorescent lights in favor of my own small lamp.)
Floor fitout is typically left to the tenant, not the landlord. Building skyscrapers with empty floors gives flexibility to future tenants, increasing the rental/purchase value. Tall office buildings may often have open plan, but this should be attributed to the fitout builder’s client (e.g. SomeCrazySoftwateCompany as the incoming tenant), not the building builder’s client (e.g. SomeGroupInvestmentCompany the owner…
If you takeout the actual tenant configurations of offices, the idea of "High-End office buildings" becomes pretty irrelevant in this conversation & context of the comment I replied to. Because at that point you're basically just talking about the lobby & the elevators, and the view out the windows.
Re: School or Prison
#384Earlier quoted context omitted.
Americans who live in low-crime areas are somewhat insulated from criminal justice "reform" that sets criminals free and increases crime rates.
[This comment previously contained an assumption that reducing poverty reduces crime rates. A poster commented that there isn't as much of a correlation as this comment stated so I removed it.]
Poverty rates fell in the 1960s, but crime rose.
Re: School or Prison
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!! Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come…
Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments. If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?
Because people who commit crimes tend to think that they won't get caught. For repeat offenders, they either think they won't get caught, or if they do, they "know how to do time."
Granted this was from studies done in the 70s and 80s that I recall from prepping for a debate on the death penalty.
Re: School or Prison
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm an assistant professor and every year some student will indeed ask if they can go to the bathroom...
I've been an adjunct professor and received that question too. My response is generally "You're the customer here. In my class, you can literally do anything you want if it doesn't interfere with other students learning or me teaching."
Not in the US and not a recent story, but there was a professor in my university who called out a noisy student telling him something in the like of "if you're bored with my lecture, you can do like these guys (pointing at students who were reading comics) and read in silence, or you can just leave, but can you not prevent others from listening?". The funny part is that the ones reading comics thought they were doing it unnoticed.
Re: School or Prison
#387Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t believe the other comments trying to equate schools with prison. It’s unbelievable how we treat prisoners in the US. I wish there was more I could do than vote and donate to causes like the ACLU. Starting to realize that my beliefs are in the minority re: how to treat fellow countrymen, even those who have committed crimes.
For those who were wondering here’s the US recidivism rates as of 2018. Smells like success... - An estimated 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. - Almost half (47%) of prisoners who did not have an arrest within 3 years of release were arrested during years 4 through 9. - More than three-quarters (77%) of released drug ofenders were arrested for a non-…
Okay, this are good numbers. However, I would also draw your attention to Table 7. Only about half of the prisoners released who were re-arrested were re-arrested for violent crimes. So, the question I ask is, are these released prisoners actually getting the support they need to succeed after release, are are they so weighed down by the stigma of prison that they can't reasonably obtain a non-criminal life?
Re: School or Prison
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I was in elementary school, we were told to try to use the bathroom after lunch, or during recess. This was teaching how to plan for what you needed to do and use the opportunities you had to get it done. You had four or five times a day when you could go to the bathroom without needing to be excused from class. It was actually harder in high school because other than lunch, you had minimal passing time between…
I'm all for teaching personal responsibility & planning at a very young age, but I draw the line at expecting control over autonomic functions. It's fine to ask kids to go when there's specific opportunities, but that doesn't justify restrictive policies during other times: Tiny bladders of small children don't work that way. Especially in grade school, it doesn't need to take more than 15-20 minutes to go from "I'm…
I agree, and it was never an issue to go at other times you just had to ask and not bolt out of the room. It was never denied. They teachers did encourage you to take advantage of the times when you were already out of the room however.
Re: School or Prison
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t believe the other comments trying to equate schools with prison. It’s unbelievable how we treat prisoners in the US. I wish there was more I could do than vote and donate to causes like the ACLU. Starting to realize that my beliefs are in the minority re: how to treat fellow countrymen, even those who have committed crimes.
I think it's because we as people tend to speak from our experiences, and I do agree that school is more authoritarian than it should be. I'm not sure what else you can do :( it's a really big systemic issue. I think we just need more awareness, first? Social life in prison involves having "friends" who can any day decide to try and rob or fight you (both happened to me with my closest "friend"). Nobody has real frie…
> I'm not sure what else you can do :( it's a really big systemic issue. I think we just need more awareness, first?
As someone who has gone through the legal system in the US and was illegally detained for activism and then later accused of false charges (with no evidence) and illegally arrested: I don't think awareness alone will do anything. Everyone knows the Police are corrupt and the city will do little to nothing if they are caught committing these abuses--the officer who stood on George's neck had several prior complaints for violence in his department and was still allowed to work as an officer.
The BLM movement to me is and will always remain a Police abuse issue first and foremost: one that was highlighted because of the death of George Floyd, but was yet another reminder that Police are in a position in which their crimes are exempt from actual punishment due to qualified immunity, and they know that and behave as such.
In CO after the protests from Floyd's death the Police had their quality immunity removed [0] for abuses they would commit against protesters and were recorded for everyone to see as it became very clear they had no intention of hiding how egregious things got but this only addressed the issues that happened from 2020 onward. There are cases of physical violence and as you said what is likely torture of people who were detained/restrained in which the State refused to prosecute the officers for despite having the evidence and had to be taken to the Supreme Court before it was heard [1]. This case was only settled out of court with the COUNTY paying $400,000 (which is really to say people like me in Boulder) and the police involved were not even punished. The female officer in the video seen abusing the women was the same person who handled my transfer to my hearing from my cell and refused to allow me to make a phone call at a time when they refused to tell me my charges when I was brought in.
Honestly, defunding the police and slashing their pay based on actual performance based reviews are the real starting point, and using social workers instead of Police for mental health cases has been experimented with favorable results in CO. Scaling that would be the next meaningful step to eventually have a bare-bones, non-militarized police force as that at least has the right incentives in place. But that may be a pipe dream in the US at this point.
One need to only look at France to see what and how Civil Society is actually maintained and it starts with keeping Police in a very confined and constrained leash and reminding them of their limited role, which sometimes means rioting and revolting against police abuse to remove poor legislation from passing.
> Unfortunately most of the people suffering in the prison system are poor, so we don't hear what they have to say. If you're rich, you can afford your own lawyer and get a much better plea deal, and get out quickly. It's also very racist:
Incredibly so, the DA of my last case never even bothered to look at the incriminating footage of the officer abusing his authority and clearly violating private property laws and abusing my civil liabilities for unsubstantiated allegations. And I HAD a Lawyer, upon release because I couldn't speak to one while I was arrested, and had it known I was willing to be compliant with the questioning process before being illegally arrested provided my attorney was present before I spoke to anyone, as its my (supposed) Right to do so.
My case was eventually dismissed after 2 missed court dates by the DA who finally looked at the body cam footage and I had my career placed in jeopardy, an injury I still deal with to this day as well as well as the trauma from the abuse and the embarrassment of the arrest as it happen at work for all to see because an officer thought they are John Wayne and knew they never face punishment for their crimes... in addition to a significant legal bill for the privilege of it all.
My only recourse was to lawyer up again and pay 10s of thousands of dollars to a Civil Rights attorney after paying for my defense attorney and take the case as high as the Supreme Court like the other women did before a settlement would even be considered, at which point most of the legal/court fees had already eaten through most of the settlement money. There are no heroes in this system, and Lawyers are just as much responsible for perpetuating this corrupt system as the corrupt judges and officers.
And this is all told from an innocent person's perspective, actual convicted criminals get hung to dry and are seldom if ever allowed to return to Society without being constantly denied the ability to live a normal life in Society anymore, while the criminals with badges commit comparable crimes with impunity.
Honestly, BLM protests need to return and be far more targeted, as in localized to city counsels and mayors/governors offices/homes instead of looting department stores before anything serious is done. COVID may be dangerous, but Police are likely the greater danger to overall safety in Society if you know how the system really works--and while its an unpopular opinion for some, this applies to white people, too. We all saw how even members of International media were treated, and felt only the superficial outrage that people who have been victimized by the legal system have.
I have several horror stories of white middle class women in Boulder being abused by the Legal system, too, and further drives the point that this is not a solely a Black issue. I saw the systematic destruction of these People's lives during my arrest and the first hearing: armed police showed up to one woman's home for a reported car accident against a bicyclist days after it took place, and another of an owner of a home being arrested and forced out of her own home in cuffs when a guest made allegations of her threatening to use force to remove the guest who overstayed and refused to leave all while her underage children were still in the home with that person.
It's completely abysmal and terrifying to be honest.
0: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/12/18/colorado-tries...
1: https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/boulder-county-sett...
Re: School or Prison
#390As someone who's been to prison and school, lots of comments here sound pretty tone deaf. Prison in the USA is really bad. Yes school is authoritarian, but most popular entertainment on prisons downplays how bad it really gets. Watch some interviews of people who have actually been to prison. Murder and rape is common (I saw it happen), you will get your possessions stolen under the threat of murder/rape, you'll prob…
Agree with everything you say about prison. I think you are under-estimating the extent that many urban schools are preparing students for prison though, and have some structural features in common, even though of course schools aren't nearly as bad as prisons. Contemporary urban schools are often really terrible places, stockhousing and controlling children, preparing them to be stockhoused and controlled.
But I think those schools are a clear example of why it's a hard problem. Urban schools could be great places if we ended their stockhousing and controlling programs - but any school that did that would see a massive drop in graduation rate, from all the students who don't value education and won't show up unless compelled. If the cost of nice, non-controlling urban schools is a 30% graduation rate, is that a price anyone's willing to pay?
(And that's without touching the problem of actively violent, disruptive students, who would probably need to be expelled far sooner than they are to protect a non-controlling environment.)