Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

capitalandgrowth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 544 posts

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#381

Post by ergodicity001 »

delhanty wrote: post #352
toohotatopic wrote: post #201

How about a Hippocratic Oath for business leaders? This is shifting the responsibility from management towards the engineers. It's not the engineers who pulled the trigger at Facebook - or Microsoft. They build the weapons. Management fires them. This is a hypocritic ode. If somebody is acting unethically at MS then it is management. All the innovation that is not happening because MS is abusing their position. Two t…

Why isn't this the top comment? Microsoft executives seem more in need of lessons in ethics than their engineers. Just one example from last year: >'We did not sign up to develop weapons' say Microsoft employees protesting $479 million HoloLens army contract https://www.pcgamer.com/we-did-not-sign-up-to-develop-weapon... >They build the weapons Talking of weapons, while we speculate about what AI might be used for, M…

Crocodile tears, and a lot of cheap virtue signaling.

I have some friends who have worked at MSFT for a long time, about 20 years or so. There was a time when they used to talk about open source as if it was cancer (~2011). When MSFT started embracing the cancer, they didn't really up and leave. Now they are all talking about how great this open source thing is.

But even funnier was when they used to complain about Google's rampant user tracking. And then one day they added targeted ads into Windows 10. Did these people suddenly decide "enough is enough" and go and join the EFF? You already know the answer to that.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#382

Post by TeaDrunk »

optimiz3 wrote: post #81
asperous wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, however not all ethics can be legislated. This sort of thing works in other professions like medicine because malpractice can cause doctors to lose their license. Same with civil engineers. This changes things because the choice is now quitting or possibly never being able to work in the field again. Perhaps principal software engineers in charge of life or death software should be licensed for accountabilit…

Doctors don't typically have bosses directing how they treat patients; Doctors have full agency, front line grunt workers do not.

I don’t think this is true in America. Doctors are limited on what will benefit the system monetarily. Healthcare administrators will decline suggested procedures from doctors due to expense.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#384

Post by bsenftner »

Someone1234 wrote: post #32

Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (because it is incompatible with a lot of difficult situations doctors are placed in). But more to the point: Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Plus what would the result be if this "oath" conflicts with a manager's instructions? Maybe we should start with Microsoft, Google, Comcast, Oracle, and simil…

We need an Ethics Oath to be required by law for anyone in the C-Suite or Corporate Board. That's where this needs to begin.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#385

Post by bsenftner »

austincheney wrote: post #84
Someone1234 wrote: post #32

Doctors no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (because it is incompatible with a lot of difficult situations doctors are placed in). But more to the point: Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Plus what would the result be if this "oath" conflicts with a manager's instructions? Maybe we should start with Microsoft, Google, Comcast, Oracle, and simil…

> Why are we trying to shift focus from the wrongs large multi-nationals do to individual software engineers? Because software engineers are the ones doing the actual work. By imposing an ethical standard on the people doing the real work the multinational executives then either accept that limitation or knowingly accept risks from intentionally violating the spirit of that limitation.

No, we are merely the technical hands of our management's will. AS IF WE HAVE A CHOICE WHAT WE DEVELOP! This is an asinine attempt to blame those not in control. The managers and the owners and the corporate board need to have this Ethics Oath, and it needs to be enforced by law.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#387

Post by quotemstr »

No, we need no such thing. Any such "Hippocratic Oath" would just become a statement of loyalty to the politics of the people in charge of drafting and administering the oath. The recent and still-raw experience of activists in tech companies damaging their coworkers and their company under the guise of "ethics" should tell us that this word is just a sneaky disguise for politics.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#388

Post by an_opabinia »

BeetleB wrote: post #171
paulryanrogers wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So management bears no blame for requiring illegal work be done, on pain of termination? Said another way, engineers now need to be technical and legal experts in the business domain? (Remember employees in the US depend on the company for health insurance. Saying 'no' could cost a lot more than just ones position.) Most software engineers are not like doctors. We have little autonomy over what is created. Our respon…

> So management bears no blame for requiring illegal work be done, on pain of termination? Said another way, engineers now need to be technical and legal experts in the business domain? This is a red herring. The oath is not needed merely for illegal work. In fact, the more common use cases will likely be legal . It's a common sentiment, but: Don't conflate ethics with legal. > Most software engineers are not like do…

> I wouldn't really want to work in a job for long if I'm not told what the code I'm writing is for.

But money dude.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#390

Post by ClumsyPilot »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #325
logicchains wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ethics and law are orthogonal, so thankfully this is generally much easier than being a legal expert. I suspect a lot of philosophers would disagree with you that ethics is much simpler than interpreting laws.

You can derive most ethics in a couple of decades, plus everyday experience. Try deriving the law from that.

Thats because it's a couple of decades of dealing with ethics. If you everyday life actually involved dealing with law, you would get good at it
Post reply on HN