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H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

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Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#381

Post by samoa42 »

Slamidan wrote: post #379
Unklejoe wrote: post #14

It's interesting that they are able to continue improving video compression. You'd think that it would have all been figured out by now. Is this continued improvement related to the improvement of technology? Or just coincidental? Like, why couldn't have H.266 been invented 30 years ago? Is it because the computers back in the day wouldn't have been fast enough to realistically use it? Do we have algorithms today tha…

I still remember when my pc would take 24 hours to compress a dvd to a high quality h264 mkv, sure you could squeeze it down with fast presets in handbrake but the point was transparency. Now I'm sure for most normal pc's the time to compress at the same quality with h.265 is the same 24 hours, in 4k, even longer, I'm sure h266 would take more than twice as long easily. Early pc's had separate and very expensive mpeg…

> I know its hard to believe but there was a time when playing back an mp3 was a big ask

can confirm. audio playback would stutter on my 486dx if one dared to multitask.

Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#382

Post by imtringued »

giantrobot wrote: post #357
beervirus wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely videoconferencing doesn’t actually use 60 FPS...

Some web conferencing would want to do 60fps. There's also realtime streaming like Twitch, PS Now, and Google's Stadia.

Twitch isn't real time.

Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#383

Post by jacobush »

anticensor wrote: post #143
jacobush wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sort of half not apply in Sweden too.

What do you mean by half valid?

Software patents are valid only if part of a larger invention, the algorithm itself cannot be patented.

However, patent clerks have also from time to time registered algorithmic patents.

Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#384

Post by corty »

adrianmonk wrote: post #314
aey wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compression is AI. It’s never going to be “all” figured out.

I'm not super strong on theory, but if I'm not mistaken, doesn't Kolmogorov complexity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity ) say we can't even know if it is all figured out? The way I understand it is that one way to compress a document would be to store a computer program and, at the decompression stage, interpret the program so that running it outputs the original data. So suppose you have a progr…

I really ain't a theorist either, but:

If you are looking at Kolmogorov complexity you are right, we can't ever know. But Kolmogorov complexity is about single points in the space of possible outputs. It basically says "there might be possible outputs that do look random, but are actually produced by a very short encoding". One example would be the digits of pi.

But if you look at the overall statistics of possible output streams, and at their averages, there is a lower bound for compression on average. As soon as the bitlength in the compressed stream matches the entropy in the uncompressed stream in bits, you reached maximum compression. There will be some streams that don't conform to those statistics, but their averages will.

However, we are somewhat far away from matched entropy equilibrium for video compression. And even then, improvements can be made, not in compression ratio but in time, ops and energy needed for de/encoding.

Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#385

Post by CaptainZapp »

ww520 wrote: post #367
proverbialbunny wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How much are we looking at for 1080p, 10%? We don't know yet. There are no public technical details (that I know of) for H266 yet, but if I recall H265 gave the same 50% reduction in bandwidth claims, and for years people stuck with H264, because it was higher quality due to dropping off less subtle parts of the video you really want to see. Only in the last couple of years has H265 really started to become embraced…

H.265 is patent laden. H.264 is much better in avoiding getting sued.

That's patently wrong[1]

Money quote :

"H.264 is a newer video codec. The standard first came out in 2003, but continues to evolve. An automatically generated patent expiration list is available at H.264 Patent List based on the MPEG-LA patent list. The last expiration is US 7826532 on 29 nov 2027 ( note that 7835443 is divisional, but the automated program missed that). US 7826532 was first filed in 05 sep 2003 and has an impressive 1546 day extension. It will be a while before H.264 is patent free."

(emphasis mine)

[1] https://www.osnews.com/story/24954/us-patent-expiration-for-...

Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#386

Post by social_quotient »

giantrobot wrote: post #267
pedrovhb wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if instead of heuristics, machine learning could be used to figure out the best parameters.

That's already done today. Most modern codecs support variable bitrate encoding so more of the data budget can be given to high complexity scenes. Source video can also be processed multiple times with varied parameters and that output then compared structurally to the source to find the parameters that best encode the scene. This is beyond the more typical multi pass encoding where a first pass over the source just…

Any apps you can recommend for giving this a spin?

Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#388

Post by vertex-four »

Ace17 wrote: post #378
vertex-four wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it there has been no successful enforcement of a software patent so far, and it's ridiculously unlikely that I (as opposed to any other actor in this space) will be the first case. So yeah, I'll take that risk.

I would love that you be right. However, here are examples of successfully enforced software patents: - in Europe: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2002/1702.html - in US: https://web.archive.org/web/20061205050434/http://eolas.com/... But as I said, if your startup is being sued by Dolby, whether the enforcement is successful or not is actually irrelevant. Showing that your work doesn't infringe a patent, or…

I meant in Europe, and that case is not successful enforcement of a software patent (merely a preliminary question as to whether some jurisdiction weirdness could be a reason that William Hill did not infringe on a patent); in fact there was no question to the court as to whether the patent was valid, and the case ended with an answer to the question asked.

This is a quirk of some UK courts, where you can literally just start a case to ask a question on some detail of the law and get an answer.

The question was:

> "Is it a defence to the claim under s.60(2) of the Patents Act 1977, if otherwise good, that the host computer claimed in the patent in suit is not present in the UK, but is connected to the rest of the apparatus claimed in the patent."

From Wikipedia:

> Questions of validity were never considered by the court.

Re: H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC)

#390

Post by ygra »

imtringued wrote: post #382
giantrobot wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some web conferencing would want to do 60fps. There's also realtime streaming like Twitch, PS Now, and Google's Stadia.

Twitch isn't real time.

The delay (configurable) isn't due to the encoder. And the encoder has to process everything in real time, otherwise you start skipping frames or fall behind.
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