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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#381

Post by hooande »

medee wrote: post #312
hooande wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some ideas are dangerous to society, flat out. ie, "the institution of slavery was good because it's part of my cultural heritage". University admissions are not just an issue of personal merit. It isn't something that you're owed because you did X, Y and Z. Colleges are trying to build a positive culture, just like startups, and that can involve rejecting skilled people with fringe beliefs. Not to mention, who wants…

Can you link the academic, journalist, politician, author, or executive who made the argument you're quoting, that slavery is good?

yes it was a man named "ie". perhaps you've heard of him?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#382

Post by TuringNYC »

rgblambda wrote: post #342
caseysoftware wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather take my changes on an unfair system with open rules than on an unfair system with opaque rules. I think this is a perfect summary. No system is perfect but at least the flaws are consistent and well-known, not subject to the whims of a particular group on a particular day.

While I would personally take the unfair system with open rules, the system with opaque rules has an advantage in that it's more difficult to game the system. With open rules, you work off a formula for maximising your chances, which may defeat the purpose of the system.

I'm a bit confused - how is prepping and/or studying for the SAT "gaming the system"? I realize SATs are not a prefect reflection of learning, and I also recognize we can make the tests better and better -- but -- what better system is there to gauge learning across millions of people in a consistent manner? I'm honestly interested in some measure that is better, and isnt subject to corruption and whims of the few and stacked in favour of the 1%.

>> opaque rules has an advantage in that it's more difficult to game the system

You are right that with opaque rules, you cannot study your way into college anymore -- because it will depend on who you know, which charitable boards your parents are part of, which civic organizations you support, how good your sports videos are choreographed, how good an essay writer you hire for your college application, how genuine your weekend "service trip to country x" photos look, etc. When you get rid of tests and replace them with opaque measures that is the sort of gaming you end up with -- and that seems like a far worse type of gaming.

I'm comfortably middle class, studying way into a good college from below poverty. Prep books on weekends for 2yrs. I realize it is hard, it isn't fair -- but I dont want to replace that system where my children have to buy their way into college -- which is where we'll end up. I'm not wealthy enough to donate a building. I'm not connected enough to land on a charitable board with a college administrator. My kids have to study their way in.

Now...i'm hearing there is no way to study their way in. Rather, we need to figure out how to please each individual school's decision makers. Is that really what is more fair? Is that what the 99% want?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#383

Post by tsimionescu »

zamfi wrote: post #376
tsimionescu wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure SAT scores correlate with wealth, but the more important question is if they correlate with knowledge. In the end, there isn't any point in admitting a student to a university where they don't understand the curriculum. So the important question that I expect universities to ask themselves is: are we getting enough information about how well a student is going to be prepared for our curriculum based on their…

> If rich people who know less have higher SAT scores than poor people who know more This considers only academic knowledge, and specifically only that knowledge that can be assessed in a standardized way. Such knowledge makes up a very small fraction of success -- though you could make the argument that students' ability to acquire and demonstrate it probably correlates with success much more than the knowledge itse…

My understanding of a university is exactly as a place of learning of academic knowledge. If academic knowledge is not the most important value in an university, then I really don't understand what the purpose could be.

As such, in a university setting, I expect to be surrounded by people who are curious, who value learning, who are building up the skills and knowledge to excel in their chosen fields. In my own country, universities are usually specialized, and further divided into highly specialized 'faculties', which has upsides but also downsides. Still, even in the American college system, I would expect all of my peers to be interested in excelling in their chosen fields of study, whether that is music or sports or medicine or computer science. I would not expect to be surrounded by people who are just ok at academic knowledge but are really driven social workers, or by people who have basic knowledge in a lot of fields, but no advanced knowledge at all.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#384

Post by mnky9800n »

michaelmrose wrote: post #361
mnky9800n wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with spending more time on helping struggling students?

To play devils advocate its not free and by default the cost accrues to the more successful students who may not have the financial resources to pay the additional funds and may opt not to attend despite being quite qualified. In some cases you may be trading more qualified graduates for less. For some the truth may be that their lack of success may be external issues that can't be resolved by an additional investmen…

In the context of the US, the lack of proper financial support coupled with the lack of a proper vocational education system means that a lot of people go to college when they will not succeed.

In the case of struggling students. I think it's hard to dismiss a person because they struggle in a single course. I failed calculus 2 and now I'm about to finish a PhD doing statistics and machine learning. Should I have been "let go" so to speak upon that failure?

Failures matter when they are cumulative not singular. This is why early warning systems in education fail so much. They rarely have enough information to provide a warning that is actually early.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#385

Post by michaelmrose »

mnky9800n wrote: post #384
michaelmrose wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devils advocate its not free and by default the cost accrues to the more successful students who may not have the financial resources to pay the additional funds and may opt not to attend despite being quite qualified. In some cases you may be trading more qualified graduates for less. For some the truth may be that their lack of success may be external issues that can't be resolved by an additional investmen…

In the context of the US, the lack of proper financial support coupled with the lack of a proper vocational education system means that a lot of people go to college when they will not succeed. In the case of struggling students. I think it's hard to dismiss a person because they struggle in a single course. I failed calculus 2 and now I'm about to finish a PhD doing statistics and machine learning. Should I have bee…

Good point

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#386

Post by caseysoftware »

TuringNYC wrote: post #382
rgblambda wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I would personally take the unfair system with open rules, the system with opaque rules has an advantage in that it's more difficult to game the system. With open rules, you work off a formula for maximising your chances, which may defeat the purpose of the system.

I'm a bit confused - how is prepping and/or studying for the SAT "gaming the system"? I realize SATs are not a prefect reflection of learning, and I also recognize we can make the tests better and better -- but -- what better system is there to gauge learning across millions of people in a consistent manner ? I'm honestly interested in some measure that is better, and isnt subject to corruption and whims of the few a…

> You are right that with opaque rules, you cannot study your way into college anymore

I think you've hit on a key point which raises the obvious question: Who benefits?

Dismissing standardized testing reduces people who do well at tests, either through skill, speed, or rigorous study.

What groups, experiences, or attributes does it select for?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#387

Post by rgblambda »

TuringNYC wrote: post #382
rgblambda wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I would personally take the unfair system with open rules, the system with opaque rules has an advantage in that it's more difficult to game the system. With open rules, you work off a formula for maximising your chances, which may defeat the purpose of the system.

I'm a bit confused - how is prepping and/or studying for the SAT "gaming the system"? I realize SATs are not a prefect reflection of learning, and I also recognize we can make the tests better and better -- but -- what better system is there to gauge learning across millions of people in a consistent manner ? I'm honestly interested in some measure that is better, and isnt subject to corruption and whims of the few a…

I'll concede my answer perhaps isn't completely applicable to SAT's which are, from what I understand, more of an IQ test. The equivalent exams in my country are on subjects that the student has studied for two years, but mainly involve getting the exam papers for the past three to five years and learning the patterns of questions, then rehearse the answers before the test. The marking system is designed to discourage anything other than this approach as the answers need to correspond to the schema the examiner has been given. I could pass a test in a subject I don't even have a basic understanding of so long as I follow the correct marking schema.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#388

Post by anon102010 »

solveit wrote: post #286
mennis16 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overstating how easy it is to discount for wealth in those other scenarios. At least when it comes to high school research experience, it has rarely been the case IME that a student got such a position directly because of their family, and certainly it is very rare that a student explicitly works in a parent's lab. Yes, some private high schools feed to quality summer research programs, but A) those sc…

I agree with everything you said and would like to add that I suspect > I think SAT/ACT are bad indicators for the "elite" schools because they just saturate this is a feature. Elite schools don't want to be able to tell the 0.5% from the 5%, because then they wouldn't be able to select for rich and solidly but not amazingly competent kids. They'll take the 0.01% olympiad medalists to fill their genius quota, then fi…

Ha - that's me - and I probably should have gone McKinsey route

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#390

Post by TuringNYC »

caseysoftware wrote: post #386
TuringNYC wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit confused - how is prepping and/or studying for the SAT "gaming the system"? I realize SATs are not a prefect reflection of learning, and I also recognize we can make the tests better and better -- but -- what better system is there to gauge learning across millions of people in a consistent manner ? I'm honestly interested in some measure that is better, and isnt subject to corruption and whims of the few a…

> You are right that with opaque rules, you cannot study your way into college anymore I think you've hit on a key point which raises the obvious question: Who benefits? Dismissing standardized testing reduces people who do well at tests, either through skill, speed, or rigorous study. What groups, experiences, or attributes does it select for?

>> What groups, experiences, or attributes does it select for?

Thats the thing -- it becomes a way for admins to select whomever they want, using their own secret/opaque criteria which may well be biased, unfair, unjust.

In New York City, where I grew up, there has been a huge backlash against entrance examinations for high school. The official stance is they are discriminatory because people could prep for the exams, but a quick survey of the schools reveal "too many" poor Asians were getting in. People who could really afford prep schools were going to private schools and boarding schools. Poorer, but intensely driven students wanting to succeed, were prepping for years for the public school exams and "overrun" the schools.

The city chose only three high schools to focus for desegregation (interestingly, the three which most Asians). Original talks were to move to a "leadership based application system" -- as if people really have opportunities to demonstrate "leadership" at age 13 or 14. Leadership here is a euphemism for "being connected" or "wealthy."

To be fully frank, I admit the tests are not fair. A truly fair system would have as many good schools as students wanting to attend them. But we dont have that -- so instead we all compete for a handful of spots that poor students can afford while the truly wealthy buy their way into wherever they want. It isnt a perfect system. The test may not be perfect -- but perhaps then we should try to improve the test, or understand why some students can/cannot do well on the tests -- rather than creating a secret system where a few people get to decide which poor students get good schooling and who gets to remain stuck in the economic prison for another generation.

Disclosure: I studied for years for these exams, went to an application based NYC high school, and went from below poverty line to well into top 1% income in the span of 8yrs. The schools matter, enormously.

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