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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#381

Post by ska »

pathseeker wrote: post #324
zipwitch wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that "union rules" or "the way the company had agreed to comply with their agreement with the union"? Because 'work to rule' can be a double-edged sword, and in my experience companies just love to blame their own chosen behavior on the union. "We have to fire you if you're late five times this quarter, because the union" really means "after we frequently and arbitrarily abused employees under the excuse of 'atte…

That's still "union rules". If the union chose to be pedantic and insisted upon these rules in negotiation, then it's really the union's fault.

This is really a problem of unintended consequences. And it's not "union rules", it's a collective agreement that both the union and management sign off on. Union shop or not, we can all point at absurdities in work life - just as many come from management in my experience (which doesn't include much work with unions).

It's a bit like the tax code or some complicated piece of bureaucracy. Some of the stuff in there sure seems stupid but you can bet it was put in for a reason that, at the time at least, looked sensible. In the case of things like "only an electrician is allowed to do that", it's a pretty safe bet that at some point in the past management tried to do an end run around the agreement and have cheaper labor do something they weren't trained or compensated for. In the US at least the system is so adversarial you end up with hard lines being drawn on both sides.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#382

Post by AnimalMuppet »

dunkelheit wrote: post #209
echelon wrote: post #3

I really don't understand this. A career in software is one of the most pampered and lucrative ones I can think of. Due to the shortage of software engineers, we can go anywhere and get a job instantly. The only downside I can think of is ageism, but then again, I have colleagues in their 50s and 60s where I work. But I suppose this isn't universal. (I'm in Atlanta and we have a lot of older workers. Age doesn't seem…

Some things other than salary to consider: open-space offices, unpaid overtime, increase in managerial oversight (pointless standups etc.), erosion of work time/free time boundary, onerous non-compete/intellectual property clauses in employment contracts. Everybody is constantly bitching about those things but despite the claimed shortage of software engineers they seem to only get worse with time. I don't claim that…

You say "increase in managerial oversight", but then mention standups. That's about the least onerous oversight possible. I understand not liking standups, but... that's not at the level of excessive management oversight. Excessive management oversight is a whole different level. (And yes, I know, standups can be part of that whole different level. That's the one you specifically mentioned, though. If that's the excessive management that most grates on you, you don't have excessive management.)

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#383

Post by [deleted] »

PaulHoule wrote: post #19
exabrial wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody at kickstarter is living a wretched existence.

That is some of the reason they can unionize. Kickstarter produces enough surplus that the workers can get a better deal than they would otherwise. What's much more interesting is the labor status of the people who work on the Kickstarted projects.

[deleted]

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#384

Post by thefreeman »

lexs wrote: post #349
pathseeker wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Somewhat obviously, I’ve seen some be successful with unions and others be successful without From the company perspective maybe, but I've not seen a union in the US that successfully rewards high performing employees over mediocre lifers. Overachievers end up leaving and you're left with no innovation. Do you have any examples of unions that have solved this problem?

NBA players association, actors guild, writers guild etc are famous examples of "rewarding high performing employees"

> NBA player association

I disagree. The NBA players association looks out for the mid level role players (who make up a vast majority of the league) over the highest performing players. The top tier of NBA players are essentially "underpaid" compared to their worth due to maximum salaries. This makes room for mid level guys to make 10-15 million per year. If there was no maximum salary there would be a massive bidding war for the top tier players, and the remaining small slice of pie would have to be split among everyone else.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#385

Post by AnimalMuppet »

coldpie wrote: post #223
mc32 wrote: post #138

I want to know if their union contract does anything from preventing parent co from shipping jobs to places with less regulation and cheaper labor...

That will kill your company way, way faster than any union will.

Clarify, please. Shipping the jobs will kill the company, or the union contract preventing it will?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#386

Post by rukittenme »

dd36 wrote: post #372
rukittenme wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please solve it then. Start with AT&T's union. I await your results.

The employees can request it be fixed in the next contract. Of all things though, I'm not sure that it's worth the effort relative to other things.

> Of all things though, I'm not sure that it's worth the effort relative to other things.

So its not easily solved...

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#387

Post by ilikehurdles »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #366
spa3thyb wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on the theory, up until your last statements - the vote to unionize was 46 to 37; 55% in favor with no breakdown in the roles means we can't be sure the dissenting voice wasn't the development staff. It could be the support and community management roles (or any other 'soft skill' role which is less scalable and no less valuable but perceived as more easily replaced) carried the vote.

It is also worth noting that NY is not a right to work state. This means that the 37 people who voted against the union have no right to not-pay-dues to the union. If the workers change their mind then, in theory, they will have the opportunity to vote to decertify the union, later in their employment (a minimum of 3 years). Approximately 0 unions a year are decertified this way in the US.

It's not really that big of a problem. In an ideal situation, sure, the union could represent union members and the non-union member would be banned from receiving any benefits bargained for by the union. Unfortunately, if the union has to represent everyone then everyone should pay, which isn't much different than if the <1% in leadership positions at a company makes a dumb decision costing the company money and people their jobs, the entire company is forced to follow the decision and totally uninvolved workers pay the consequences for it. At least in a union, the workers have say in how it operates and what its goals are.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#388

Post by mdszy »

Hot take: If your comment starts with "Why don't they just..." then it's almost certainly something stupid that assumes everyone has the same ability to move jobs/uproot their life that you do. Don't even bother saying it.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#389

Post by vkou »

_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

I've worked once in a non-union shop, where I wasn't allowed to move my computer from my old desk to another. I was expected to unplug all my stuff, label it, put all my personal effects and peripherals into a crate, label it, and sign out. Then, I was supposed to come back the next day, and set everything up.

In one of these moves, my new desk was twelve feet away from my old desk. (In seven years of working at this non-union shop, I have had my desk moved 9 times.)

What conclusion can we draw from this anecdote, combined with the one by the parent poster? Why does one gather positive karma, while the other negative?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#390

Post by lr4444lr »

lexs wrote: post #349
pathseeker wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Somewhat obviously, I’ve seen some be successful with unions and others be successful without From the company perspective maybe, but I've not seen a union in the US that successfully rewards high performing employees over mediocre lifers. Overachievers end up leaving and you're left with no innovation. Do you have any examples of unions that have solved this problem?

NBA players association, actors guild, writers guild etc are famous examples of "rewarding high performing employees"

Every one of those also famously enforces a closed shop for the positions most people have in mind when they think of "high performers".
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