Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 617 posts

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#381

Post by ipnon »

dadarepublic wrote: post #121

This is great news! With the current direction of US politics, as a US citizen, I find myself increasingly entertaining the thought of becoming an ex-pat. Top countries I've thought about have been the Nordic countries - Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Greenland, Iceland and have considered the Netherlands as well. They seem to have reasonable blended economies with social policies that make (more) sense. No countr…

I am in the same boat (pun intended). Just the cost of delivery without complications (>$10,000 on average in the US [0]) makes the prospect of having a child in a country with socialized healthcare economically sensible. Think of how much that $10,000 could be worth if invested in the stock market instead of in a healthcare plan's yearly revenue.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-hav...

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#382

Post by daenz »

nailer wrote: post #363
the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

> Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. Men do not produce milk.

Transphobic.

Edit>> FtM men produce milk for the downvoters.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#383

Post by kgwgk »

scrollbar wrote: post #373
petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

Not to downplay the importance of your fathering and nurturing your child's passions at all- My understanding of the research around personality development is that something like 80% (BS statistic I know) of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development. The early few years are when we get conditioned with the core emotional programming: "I am safe" vs. "I am at risk" - "I am lovable" vs. "I am unlov…

> something like 80% (BS statistic I know) of the personality is formed in the first 5 years of development

And how much in the first five months?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#384

Post by JackFr »

Where does the money come from? I'm an American and so I'm less familiar with other countries policies. I get that mandating a very generous family leave policy is wonderful for parents and good for society. To me it seems it's gotta be tough for small business owners though. A business of lets say 8 employees simply cannot afford a paid six month leave without it impacting its performance. How is that handled in those countries?

That being said, I'm inclined to proposals here which fund it through Social Security or a Social Security like system, which would level the playing field between small and large businesses.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#385

Post by conanbatt »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #22

Good job Finland! Fellow Nordic here (Norwegian) and a dad. The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children. I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a…

> The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children.

If the parental leave policy were taken away, would parents take more or less time to spend with their kids than before the policy took place?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#386

Post by the_af »

growlist wrote: post #378
the_af wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry into the workplace has actually taken away the choice of being a full-time mum for many, by forcing them to work. I don't buy this narrative, sorry. Also, of course women who want to stay at home taking care of the babies while the father is less involved in child-rearing are perfectly welcome to do it. It's just that I think it's unfair that society expect…

But hang on - you painted a picture of the burnt out tired mother that can't wait to get back to work, away from the drudgery of motherhood. I'm saying that's not a fair representation of many womens' priorities. I could even take it a step further and say that for many women, emancipation in terms of employment has destroyed their chances of having what would really make them happy (a family life) due to the need to…

I didn't bring feminism into this, mind you. I'm also talking about my priorities and rights as a father. I didn't mention and wasn't thinking about feminism or women's rights, though of course those are related topics. Did you notice this?

Emancipation is emancipation. If being "shackled" to a job/employer is destroying someone's chances at a happy life, that's a problem with capitalism at large. I don't see why it has to be about motherhood or parenthood, and not about a blood-sucking system.

The implication that (some? most? many?) women had stay-at-home motherhood "swapped for them" for a career/education is the underlying tone that I dislike in your narrative (and which user seneca "doesn't see" in your post). "Had it swapped for them" is pretty insulting wording, come to think of it.

> Wasn't feminism supposed to be about unshackling women?

Yes.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#387

Post by growlist »

enumjorge wrote: post #343
growlist wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth pointing out that in the midst of this brave new world - where every woman is supposedly a kick-ass world-beating entrepreneur if only the damned patriarchy would get off her back - there are plenty of women that have zero interest in having a career, and see the point of their existence as being to have children and be a mother to them; and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry in…

The erosion of wages has many causes, not just women having more equal opportunity in the workforce. I’d argue wages have been much more affected by the accumulation of wealth into the top of the food chain. And that aside, what’s the alternative? Relegate women to work only as teachers and secretaries because some of them want to be stay at home moms?

> And that aside, what’s the alternative? Relegate women to work only as teachers and secretaries because some of them want to be stay at home moms?

I was just pointing out that along with the women who cannot wait to get back to work there are also plenty that are perfectly happy to give up work forever - for some having a child and especially the early years are the most meaningful thing that happens in their entire life. I think it's worth making this point because we have this pro-career consensus that perhaps mainly caters to and benefits a small group of highly exceptional people at the top, and which is not necessarily good for society. This is the paradoxical nature of the thing: attempt to emancipate women; in reality end up making them work like dogs for 40 years and (for many soon it seems) die childless.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#388

Post by Nimitz14 »

brewdad wrote: post #345
seneca wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. This isn't breastfeeding, unfortunately. Your baby was fed breast-milk, but not breastfed. Not a value judgement, but a father feeding a baby from a bottle isn't exactly the same thing developmentally.

Mothers breastfeed when they can and can pump milk for the times when they can't. Baby still gets the nutritional benefits of breast milk and bonding time with each parent. Your argument is the same as saying I didn't eat a nourishing home-cooked meal because I heated up last night's leftovers for lunch today. It's still way better than fast food.

It's not the same, when I wrote

> (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same)

that was pumped milk.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#389

Post by camelNotation »

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

I'm an American who received several months of paid paternity leave when each my children were born (my company is an exception to the rule here in the US). It's not just about the child that is born, it's about your partner as well as your other children. The introduction of a new child is a huge shift for everyone in a family and being there to support your partner during that time makes a huge difference if you spend that time well.

But the biggest benefit of all was in the lives of my older children. When a new baby comes along, their mother is almost entirely occupied caring for the newborn (my wife wanted to exclusively breastfeed our children, so that is a lot of why it played out this way), so having me there to spend time with them each day during those first few months and take them places and reinforce the fact that they are loved just as much as ever was immensely important. I've seen so many older siblings change, develop resentment, begin misbehaving during that transition period. My kids all handled it extremely well and I think I played a role in that.

I sincerely believe every father should have paid time off when a child is born. It's not about one person in the family, it's about how the entire process of bringing a new person into the home affects everyone.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#390

Post by lanstin »

gnud wrote: post #368
jonplackett wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is missing the point of equal parental leave and how it creates equality - it's for the mum just as much as the dad, so she can now get a bit of her life back earlier. I took 3 months leave (wish it was more) when my daughter was born, spread out through the year a month at a time. I loved each month for different reasons and I know each month helped me understand what my wife was dealing with better and…

These policies have definitively contributed to a big social change. And while it looks on the surface like this is about "fairness for dad", on a macro level the changes mostly benefit women who want to both have kids and a career. It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids. At my job, I also see way more dads staying home wit…

I think it also establishes a connection between the dad and the kids that makes the dad a better parent down the road. At least spending a lot of time with my infants did change me enough to be a much better parent for the rest of the journey.
Post reply on HN