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Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

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Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#381

Post by jarjoura »

Ok, I'm starting to think this article is click-bait. There is no need for a backdoor with WhatsApp because messages are stored on the device. If police have the device on hand, they should be able to see the messages (assuming they can unlock it.)

https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/

> International Legal Process Requirements

> We disclose account records solely in accordance with our terms of service and applicable law. A Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty request or letter rogatory may be required to compel the disclosure of the contents of an account. Further information can be found here.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#382

Post by tootahe45 »

ShorsHammer wrote: post #351
vizzah wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good, but your e-mail provider can still see it. And be forced to eavesdropping. Back in '90s I used a nym e-mail to receive e-mails anonymously and with no traces. In a few words - e-mails are encrypted with your PGP key and posted to Usenet groups, where you scan all messages and extract only those signed&encrypted with your key. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonymous_remailer Yep, there are 1000 and 1 method o…

Protonmail has(claims) client-side encryption.

And deletes your account for 'fraud' if you log in on an IP someone else used for malicious activity.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#383

Post by ISL »

jedberg wrote: post #366
ISL wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wish to send you, jedberg, a message that looks like: C8hWgwo5YeC5ojiOaDe3JVaLev+3zaZDfRVTAjvqNCA= ("Jedberg is thoughtful.", encrypted with AES key jedberg). I must be able to do so. To compel a backdoor is to make some speech illegal.

The courts have already ruled that it’s ok to make speech illegal in the name of public safety.

To me, C8hWgwo5YeC5ojiOaDe3JVaLev+3zaZDfRVTAjvqNCA= is a lot less harmful than shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Banning C8hWgwo5YeC5ojiOaDe3JVaLev+3zaZDfRVTAjvqNCA= is akin to banning shouting in a theater, for any purpose. In particular, the banning of political speech is highly protected. One cannot readily show that C8hWgwo5YeC5ojiOaDe3JVaLev+3zaZDfRVTAjvqNCA= is not political speech (and indeed, here, it is).

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#384

Post by yabadabadoes »

taxidump wrote: post #347
blobs wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keeping safe argument from government is indeed preposterous. As if that was their mission to keep us safe. Why are they allowing our nature to be destroyed in favor of money/economy? This years heatwaves killed many thousands of people in Europe only, some estimates are in the tens of thousands. This is real deaths in 1 year, not because of terrorist attacks, no fucking backdoor will stop this. And what are they…

I can not find any source that many thousands if not tens of thousands died in Europe in 2019 from the heat wave. Can you point me to your information source? I believe you are confusing the 2003 heatwave from over a decade ago with the one in 2019. The 2019 heat was directly implicated in the deaths of at least 15 people. Five died in France, four in Germany, three in the United Kingdom, two in Spain, and one in Ita…

The difficulty of attributing deaths to heatwaves is something that comes up in books like freakonomics if I am not mistaken.. At any rate, from that wikipedia entry:

> Netherlands reported 400 excess deaths in the week of the heat wave, a figure comparable to those recorded during the 2006 European heat wave.

Netherlands is considerably smaller than the other nations.. Most put these spikes as a portion* that would have died in the next days weeks, or months lowering statistics later in the year and a portion that would not have.

(Edit) A paper putting the 2003 heat-wave death toll at 70,000: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S163106910...

*The term from the 2003 paper is harvesting and there were little to no signs of it.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#385

Post by Kenji »

nindalf wrote: post #271

Yes, this is something that literally everyone who reads HN will oppose. Meanwhile do you hear the deafening silence from the average Joe who thinks he has "nothing to hide"? Don't hate the politicians who keep pushing this. They're just trying not to get fired. And the surest way to get fired in a western country right now is to be seen doing nothing about the terrorism problem and then having terrorist acts committ…

[dead]

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#386

Post by DanBC »

jarjoura wrote: post #381

Ok, I'm starting to think this article is click-bait. There is no need for a backdoor with WhatsApp because messages are stored on the device. If police have the device on hand, they should be able to see the messages (assuming they can unlock it.) https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/ > International Legal Process Requirements > We disclose account records solely in accordance with our terms of serv…

That would be overt surveillance, and the security services are claiming they need the backdoor for covert surveillance.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#387

Post by mytailorisrich »

GordonS wrote: post #220

The idea that moves like this will "keep us safe" is utterly preposterous; there are a multitude of other ways in which terrorists (or the boogeyman de jour ) could communicate - are the UK and US governments going to insist on backdooring IRC, Slack and face-to-face conversations? Are they going to outlaw encryption libraries? I truely fear for the future that western governments, in particular the 5 eyes members, a…

It is reasonable for governments to want to be able to wiretap communications. They can wiretap telephones, including mobile/cell phones, for example as this is built into those systems. There is no problem with that and it is actually welcome.

Those apps that provide end-to-end encryption are a problem and they are working on solving it.

Claiming that they should not be able to wiretap lawfully (or even otherwise) is a rather naive view of the world and lawful wiretapping does not imply dystopia.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#388

Post by sidlls »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #387
GordonS wrote: post #220

The idea that moves like this will "keep us safe" is utterly preposterous; there are a multitude of other ways in which terrorists (or the boogeyman de jour ) could communicate - are the UK and US governments going to insist on backdooring IRC, Slack and face-to-face conversations? Are they going to outlaw encryption libraries? I truely fear for the future that western governments, in particular the 5 eyes members, a…

It is reasonable for governments to want to be able to wiretap communications. They can wiretap telephones, including mobile/cell phones, for example as this is built into those systems. There is no problem with that and it is actually welcome. Those apps that provide end-to-end encryption are a problem and they are working on solving it. Claiming that they should not be able to wiretap lawfully (or even otherwise) i…

Lawful wiretapping does not imply dystopia, but the actual practice sure seems to. This is very likely to be abused by enforcement agencies and politicians.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#389

Post by kemiller »

grawprog wrote: post #344
blobs wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keeping safe argument from government is indeed preposterous. As if that was their mission to keep us safe. Why are they allowing our nature to be destroyed in favor of money/economy? This years heatwaves killed many thousands of people in Europe only, some estimates are in the tens of thousands. This is real deaths in 1 year, not because of terrorist attacks, no fucking backdoor will stop this. And what are they…

>They are the only ones who can change things by law, not me. I had this thought yesterday as I read about several prominent politicians in Canada, including the prime minister, actively participating in the climate 'protests' that occurred yesterday. Who were they out there protesting? Themselves? They're the ones with the power to change things. Why were they outside with signs instead of in their offices doing som…

Because politicians in a democracy cannot do things unilaterally.

Re: Facebook, WhatsApp Will Have to Share Messages With U.K.?

#390

Post by DanBC »

sidlls wrote: post #388
mytailorisrich wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is reasonable for governments to want to be able to wiretap communications. They can wiretap telephones, including mobile/cell phones, for example as this is built into those systems. There is no problem with that and it is actually welcome. Those apps that provide end-to-end encryption are a problem and they are working on solving it. Claiming that they should not be able to wiretap lawfully (or even otherwise) i…

Lawful wiretapping does not imply dystopia, but the actual practice sure seems to. This is very likely to be abused by enforcement agencies and politicians.

In the UK there is some oversight by the parliamentary committee and also the courts.

Here's a case where the courts say that police surveillance was not correctly authorised: https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKIPTrib/2018/IPT_17_93_H.ht...

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