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Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

blogs.perl.org

381–390 of 424 posts

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#381

> Perl 6 performance has now gotten to the point where it's often comparable to Perl 5 or surpasses it. It still needs some work in this area, but the work is clear, the goals are straightforward, and Perl 6 is going to easily oustrip Perl 5 in terms of performance. If the Perl 6 community wants to rename, it's perhaps the perfect time to do so. It doesn't look like a bad choice if performance is a primary concern. P…

> Perl6 has been under development for over a decade at this point, and this equivocating statement is the best that can be said about performance? If the "work is clear, the goals are straightforward" and Perl 6 should easily outstrip Perl 5 on performance, then by gosh they should demonstrate that.

As the other of the post in question, I refer you to this presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNeu0wK92NE

It's fairly decent, but there's still a huge amount of backstory left out of it. In short: in many areas Perl 6 is pretty close to on par with most dynamic languages today. In other areas, performance is still an issue.

> If performance is a major blocker to adoption and it's as straightforward to fix as suggested - it should get done.

(Disclaimer: I'm not the one doing the work mentioned below)

It's being done, but there's a lot of work. There's compile-time analysis with constant folding, eliminating unnecessary scopes, inlining native ops, code rewriting to faster equivalents, etc. But that can only take you so far.

The run time optimizer is hard work, but that's where the good stuff is at. There's a very lightweight optimizer that builds a statistical model of the program and that's very helpful. For example, we can tell if a codepath is hot or not and that model than lets us do all sorts interesting stuff, such as realizing that a hot method is always getting called with an int, so we can skip multi-dispatch lookups, assume an int, and just have a fast guard in place.

We can inline code where appropriate. We can do more escape analysis. We can reoptimize code that's inlined at runtime. We can see an int->int and realize that we might not need to box and unbox those as objects. See also: https://jnthn.net/papers/2019-gpw-ea.pdf

In short, there's a ton of stuff to do and it's being done.

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#382
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is by far the most important thing they could be doing right now. It should have been done 10-15 years ago, and is arguably the dominant remaining reason for why the work done on both Perls since Perl 6 has failed to payoff the way it should have. There is a certain contingent of developers who should have been all over Perl 6 and very excited about it. We should have been seeing the stream of "$COMMON_LIBRARY b…

I believe Perl 5's decline and Perl 6's failure to catch on is evidence of the failure of their common underlying TMTOWTDI philosophy, which encourages write-only "creative snowflake" Perl code that's an inscrutable, unreadable, unmaintainable nightmare. (The sigil-heavy line-noise syntax sure doesn't help, either.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There%27s_more_than_one_way_to... http://wiki.c2.com/?ThereIsMoreThanOne…

>"There should be one — and preferably only one — obvious way to do it."

Which Python manages to break all the time. How many ways are there to format a string again?

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#384
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels like the big blocker is that it seems to only be useful if you insist on a language that is Perl-like but also modern, but most Perl programmers probably moved to other languages already and don't care about whether their language is Perl-like, and the remaining ones are probably mostly maintaining Perl 5 codebases that they don't want to rewrite. Ignoring the Perl angle, it's a language with a small ecosystem…

The thing is, there are a LOT of new things in Perl 6. Its approach to regexes (with grammars) feels genuinely revolutionary, and it's got a lot of other neat things about it. I don't think it'd be instantly super-popular if it were a standalone, non-Perl-affiliated language, but I think it'd at least be talked about like Elixir or F# or Elm.

Its approach to regexes (with grammars) feels genuinely revolutionary

Is that really a thing that couldn’t just be added to PCRE and be available in any language with bindings?

F# has the advantage of easy interoperability with the vast .NET ecosystem.

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#386
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "modern" is a thought smell Sometimes it's a thought smell, but sometimes it's shorthand for "has learned the lessons of recent history", which is indeed valuable.

The trouble is when it's shorthand for "forgotten the lessons of ancient history"

or worse, forgotten the lessons of recent history

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#387
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. Would you consider Bash on-par with Perl?

No, I wouldn't. Perl 5 is much more powerful. But I wouldn't choose either for a moderately large script.

Ah okay.

But back in the days? Bash seems to be released a year or so after Perl.

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#389
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels like the big blocker is that it seems to only be useful if you insist on a language that is Perl-like but also modern, but most Perl programmers probably moved to other languages already and don't care about whether their language is Perl-like, and the remaining ones are probably mostly maintaining Perl 5 codebases that they don't want to rewrite. Ignoring the Perl angle, it's a language with a small ecosystem…

The thing is, there are a LOT of new things in Perl 6. Its approach to regexes (with grammars) feels genuinely revolutionary, and it's got a lot of other neat things about it. I don't think it'd be instantly super-popular if it were a standalone, non-Perl-affiliated language, but I think it'd at least be talked about like Elixir or F# or Elm.

Is there like, some sort of website showcasing new features and providing idiomatic examples that would make someone go...holy shit?

Re: Is Perl 6 Being Renamed?

#390

I'm sorry but Perl 6 isnt relevant IMO. It took too long. I was a Perl developer at etoys.com in 2000 and BBC in 2001. I wrote OneMusic for Radio1 and even convinced the BBCs uptight ops team to run it with modperl so it could handle the high traffic it did. I also created the job search engine WorkZoo in modperl, one of Time Magazines top 50 sites of 2005 and Indeed's main competitor at the time. Perl6 was promised.…

If Perl6 is ever performant, I'll be dropping Python for a lot of Scripting uses. Perl6 is a big language, but has a lot of power and beauty.

For what it's worth, for maybe half of my scripting purposes, Perl 6 was already performant enough back in 2010. The big things I remember it having speed issues on were things you wouldn't normally have considered Perl 5 a solution for, like using a grammar to parse a multi-megabyte CAD file or calculate a Mandelbrot set using elegant high-level code.

Today, while those two things are still slow enough in Perl 6 I wouldn't make Perl 6 my primary language for doing them, I can't even remember the last time I wrote a script in Perl 6 and it was too slow to be usable.

Mind, I think Perl 5 is still faster on things Perl 5 was super-optimized for -- regex processing, for instance. But on a normal week, I throw together a couple of quick Perl 6 scripts to get stuff done. It's usually a joy to program in and execution speed just hasn't been a problem for me.

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